Kirtland vs Versailles

[Tri_State79]

Coaching + Culture. Nothing in life is ever just one absolute. Everything is nuanced. It's a combo of both coaching & culture.

Coaches create the culture. If not, Kirtland and ML would have won titles before their current coaches took control.

Coaches & community. Gotta have the ongoing community support & THE right coach. The support can't waver. Good or bad coach. Has to be consistent.

That's where ya culture comes from. Good habits in class. On field. In study. And at home. Collective effort.

[RBH23]

Coaching + Culture. Nothing in life is ever just one absolute. Everything is nuanced. It's a combo of both coaching & culture.

Coaches create the culture. If not, Kirtland and ML would have won titles before their current coaches took control.

Coaches & community. Gotta have the ongoing community support & THE right coach. The support can't waver. Good or bad coach. Has to be consistent.

Support at IHS and Burg is tremendous. Just look at state championship attendance records. Ironton and Burg travel well to support their teams.

[Tri_State79]

Coaches create the culture. If not, Kirtland and ML would have won titles before their current coaches took control.

Coaches & community. Gotta have the ongoing community support & THE right coach. The support can't waver. Good or bad coach. Has to be consistent.

Support at IHS and Burg is tremendous. Just look at state championship attendance records. Ironton and Burg travel well to support their teams.

Right. I agree. So the talent is there for both. The support is there for both.

Where is the deficiency at then?

[RBH23]

Coaches & community. Gotta have the ongoing community support & THE right coach. The support can't waver. Good or bad coach. Has to be consistent.

Support at IHS and Burg is tremendous. Just look at state championship attendance records. Ironton and Burg travel well to support their teams.

Right. I agree. So the talent is there for both. The support is there for both.

Where is the deficiency at then?

Coaching, specifically around the offense. Both Burg and IHS commit way too many turnovers and penalties.

Take ML. That team blocks incredibly well without holding. Burg cannot do that. Neither can Ironton.

Turnovers? ML had one in the state finals. Burg is good for 2-3 per game.

ML and LC started all juniors and seniors; no sophomores or freshmen. This reminded me of the Ed Miller days when no freshmen even dressed varsity no matter how good they might be. Although he did play sophomores, those sophomores would have to be very talented. Ed stuck with juniors and seniors because age makes a difference.

[Proud_Pirate63]

Support at IHS and Burg is tremendous. Just look at state championship attendance records. Ironton and Burg travel well to support their teams.

Right. I agree. So the talent is there for both. The support is there for both.

Where is the deficiency at then?

Coaching, specifically around the offense. Both Burg and IHS commit way too many turnovers and penalties.

Take ML. That team blocks incredibly well without holding. Burg cannot do that. Neither can Ironton.

Turnovers? ML had one in the state finals. Burg is good for 2-3 per game.

ML and LC started all juniors and seniors; no sophomores or freshmen. This reminded me of the Ed Miller days when no freshmen even dressed varsity no matter how good they might be. Although he did play sophomores, those sophomores would have to be very talented. Ed stuck with juniors and seniors because age makes a difference.

I can think of one who dressed as a freshman. Jonathan Eaton.

[RBH23]

Right. I agree. So the talent is there for both. The support is there for both.

Where is the deficiency at then?

Coaching, specifically around the offense. Both Burg and IHS commit way too many turnovers and penalties.

Take ML. That team blocks incredibly well without holding. Burg cannot do that. Neither can Ironton.

Turnovers? ML had one in the state finals. Burg is good for 2-3 per game.

ML and LC started all juniors and seniors; no sophomores or freshmen. This reminded me of the Ed Miller days when no freshmen even dressed varsity no matter how good they might be. Although he did play sophomores, those sophomores would have to be very talented. Ed stuck with juniors and seniors because age makes a difference.

I can think of one who dressed as a freshman. Jonathan Eaton.

Ed let Eaton dress as a freshman? Wow, shocked by that. Even Risner, as a freshman, didn’t dress for varsity or play JV, and yet he started at linebacker as a sophomore.

[Oldtimer55]

Coaching, specifically around the offense. Both Burg and IHS commit way too many turnovers and penalties.

Take ML. That team blocks incredibly well without holding. Burg cannot do that. Neither can Ironton.

Turnovers? ML had one in the state finals. Burg is good for 2-3 per game.

ML and LC started all juniors and seniors; no sophomores or freshmen. This reminded me of the Ed Miller days when no freshmen even dressed varsity no matter how good they might be. Although he did play sophomores, those sophomores would have to be very talented. Ed stuck with juniors and seniors because age makes a difference.

I can think of one who dressed as a freshman. Jonathan Eaton.

Ed let Eaton dress as a freshman? Wow, shocked by that. Even Risner, as a freshman, didn’t dress for varsity or play JV, and yet he started at linebacker as a sophomore.

Sorry will I have to disagree, Eaton played varsity basketball the 2 nd half of the season as a freshmen but did not dress for football

[efarns]

J.O.B.S., and income the footprint of that conference all ranks in the top 3rd in Ohio in personal income, household income, and low unemployment.

If it was just about income and jobs, Indian Hill would dominate Ohio football.

It is not JUST about income and jobs. But the demographics of your district do matter.

[yabbadabbadoo]

I can think of one who dressed as a freshman. Jonathan Eaton.

Ed let Eaton dress as a freshman? Wow, shocked by that. Even Risner, as a freshman, didn’t dress for varsity or play JV, and yet he started at linebacker as a sophomore.

Sorry will I have to disagree, Eaton played varsity basketball the 2 nd half of the season as a freshmen but did not dress for football

I don't think he dressed for football either. That was Ed's last year.

In basketball I don't think Lovenguth let Eaton start playing until the tourney and they upset No. 1 seed Chesapeake in the sectionals and made it all the way to the Regional final against Sugarcreek Garaway and 7'2" Shawn Terry. Chris Ellis was a Senior on that team and Eaton was the spark they needed in the tourney.

[RBH23]

Ed let Eaton dress as a freshman? Wow, shocked by that. Even Risner, as a freshman, didn’t dress for varsity or play JV, and yet he started at linebacker as a sophomore.

Sorry will I have to disagree, Eaton played varsity basketball the 2 nd half of the season as a freshmen but did not dress for football

I don't think he dressed for football either. That was Ed's last year.

In basketball I don't think Lovenguth let Eaton start playing until the tourney and they upset No. 1 seed Chesapeake in the sectionals and made it all the way to the Regional final against Sugarcreek Garaway and 7'2" Shawn Terry. Chris Ellis was a Senior on that team and Eaton was the spark they needed in the tourney.

Ed was hardcore about not dressing freshmen. He kept freshmen completely away from the varsity team: no dressing for varsity or JV games, no sharing locker rooms, no practicing together, etc. Only time we were allowed on the same field as varsity was to hold blow bags when the JV team had a game.

[Proud_Pirate63]

Sorry will I have to disagree, Eaton played varsity basketball the 2 nd half of the season as a freshmen but did not dress for football

I don't think he dressed for football either. That was Ed's last year.

In basketball I don't think Lovenguth let Eaton start playing until the tourney and they upset No. 1 seed Chesapeake in the sectionals and made it all the way to the Regional final against Sugarcreek Garaway and 7'2" Shawn Terry. Chris Ellis was a Senior on that team and Eaton was the spark they needed in the tourney.

Ed was hardcore about not dressing freshmen. He kept freshmen completely away from the varsity team: no dressing for varsity or JV games, no sharing locker rooms, no practicing together, etc. Only time we were allowed on the same field as varsity was to hold blow bags when the JV team had a game.

I was a sophomore when he was a freshman. Rode the bus with him to some varsity games. He may have played some freshman ball for the experience building.

[thebarlowbandit]

J.O.B.S., and income the footprint of that conference all ranks in the top 3rd in Ohio in personal income, household income, and low unemployment.

If it was just about income and jobs, Indian Hill would dominate Ohio football.

Indian Hills has tons of schools to compete and take their better athletes in the private schools. You don't have that up in MAC land, and open enrollement is not a thing. And if you don't think income, jobs and families don't make a difference, I don't know what you think does make a difference.

[thebarlowbandit]

Ed let Eaton dress as a freshman? Wow, shocked by that. Even Risner, as a freshman, didn’t dress for varsity or play JV, and yet he started at linebacker as a sophomore.

Sorry will I have to disagree, Eaton played varsity basketball the 2 nd half of the season as a freshmen but did not dress for football

I don't think he dressed for football either. That was Ed's last year.

In basketball I don't think Lovenguth let Eaton start playing until the tourney and they upset No. 1 seed Chesapeake in the sectionals and made it all the way to the Regional final against Sugarcreek Garaway and 7'2" Shawn Terry. Chris Ellis was a Senior on that team and Eaton was the spark they needed in the tourney.

It was Highland, and 7'2" Jason Terry

[thebarlowbandit]

J.O.B.S., and income the footprint of that conference all ranks in the top 3rd in Ohio in personal income, household income, and low unemployment.

If it was just about income and jobs, Indian Hill would dominate Ohio football.

It is not JUST about income and jobs. But the demographics of your district do matter.

Yes they do!

[RBH23]

J.O.B.S., and income the footprint of that conference all ranks in the top 3rd in Ohio in personal income, household income, and low unemployment.

If it was just about income and jobs, Indian Hill would dominate Ohio football.

Indian Hills has tons of schools to compete and take their better athletes in the private schools. You don't have that up in MAC land, and open enrollement is not a thing. And if you don't think income, jobs and families don't make a difference, I don't know what you think does make a difference.

Indian Hill doesn’t have much competition when it comes to income, a category you claimed was critical. Based on that, they shouldn’t be concerned about other schools stealing their talent and coaches.

Ironton wouldn’t have beaten Sycamore a few years ago if income was such a large factor.

So what makes a difference? Talent is important but the answer is COACHING!!!!!!!!

Great example of this is Hilliard Davidson. A D1 program that, under coach Brian White, won two state and five regional titles. Once he retired, the football team went to . No longer a D1 power.

Did Hilliard’s jobs, income, demographics, etc change to cause this? No. Hilliard is still a well off, family oriented area. Has the same demographics, income, etc as before. Only thing that changed was the coach.

Need another example? Take Kirtland. Always has been a family-oriented area with good schools, jobs, income, etc. But pre-Tiger, they had zero playoff wins. Once Tiger took over as coach, they became a state power.

Still need another example? This time, I’ll use Marion Local. Again, a strong middle class area with good paying blue collar jobs and strong family values. Has been that way for a long time. But before their current coach took over the program, ML had ZERO state titles. ZERO!! All of their titles and success have come under ONE coach!!!

Finally, take Wheelersburg football. In 1971, Burg lost 5 games that season. Ed Miller took over starting the 1972 season. From 1972-1979, Wheelersburg lost a total of 5 games with zero losses in five of those seasons! Did Burg’s income level dramatically change in one year? Did Burg’s demographics dramatically change? No. Only thing that changed was the coach.

[efarns]

If it was just about income and jobs, Indian Hill would dominate Ohio football.

Indian Hills has tons of schools to compete and take their better athletes in the private schools. You don't have that up in MAC land, and open enrollement is not a thing. And if you don't think income, jobs and families don't make a difference, I don't know what you think does make a difference.

Indian Hill doesn’t have much competition when it comes to income, a category you claimed was critical. Based on that, they shouldn’t be concerned about other schools stealing their talent and coaches.

Ironton wouldn’t have beaten Sycamore a few years ago if income was such a large factor.

So what makes a difference? Talent is important but the answer is COACHING!!!!!!!!

Great example of this is Hilliard Davidson. A D1 program that, under coach Brian White, won two state and five regional titles. Once he retired, the football team went to . No longer a D1 power.

Did Hilliard’s jobs, income, demographics, etc change to cause this? No. Hilliard is still a well off, family oriented area. Has the same demographics, income, etc as before. Only thing that changed was the coach.

Need another example? Take Kirtland. Always has been a family-oriented area with good schools, jobs, income, etc. But pre-Tiger, they had zero playoff wins. Once Tiger took over as coach, they became a state power.

Still need another example? This time, I’ll use Marion Local. Again, a strong middle class area with good paying blue collar jobs and strong family values. Has been that way for a long time. But before their current coach took over the program, ML had ZERO state titles. ZERO!! All of their titles and success have come under ONE coach!!!

Finally, take Wheelersburg football. In 1971, Burg lost 5 games that season. Ed Miller took over starting the 1972 season. From 1972-1979, Wheelersburg lost a total of 5 games with zero losses in five of those seasons! Did Burg’s income level dramatically change in one year? Did Burg’s demographics dramatically change? No. Only thing that changed was the coach.

You are citing coaches who coached in desirable areas who had success. Obviously, coaching is a key element. But show me a school with a state title dynasty in an economically depressed county. I'll wait.

[RBH23]

Indian Hills has tons of schools to compete and take their better athletes in the private schools. You don't have that up in MAC land, and open enrollement is not a thing. And if you don't think income, jobs and families don't make a difference, I don't know what you think does make a difference.

Indian Hill doesn’t have much competition when it comes to income, a category you claimed was critical. Based on that, they shouldn’t be concerned about other schools stealing their talent and coaches.

Ironton wouldn’t have beaten Sycamore a few years ago if income was such a large factor.

So what makes a difference? Talent is important but the answer is COACHING!!!!!!!!

Great example of this is Hilliard Davidson. A D1 program that, under coach Brian White, won two state and five regional titles. Once he retired, the football team went to . No longer a D1 power.

Did Hilliard’s jobs, income, demographics, etc change to cause this? No. Hilliard is still a well off, family oriented area. Has the same demographics, income, etc as before. Only thing that changed was the coach.

Need another example? Take Kirtland. Always has been a family-oriented area with good schools, jobs, income, etc. But pre-Tiger, they had zero playoff wins. Once Tiger took over as coach, they became a state power.

Still need another example? This time, I’ll use Marion Local. Again, a strong middle class area with good paying blue collar jobs and strong family values. Has been that way for a long time. But before their current coach took over the program, ML had ZERO state titles. ZERO!! All of their titles and success have come under ONE coach!!!

Finally, take Wheelersburg football. In 1971, Burg lost 5 games that season. Ed Miller took over starting the 1972 season. From 1972-1979, Wheelersburg lost a total of 5 games with zero losses in five of those seasons! Did Burg’s income level dramatically change in one year? Did Burg’s demographics dramatically change? No. Only thing that changed was the coach.

You are citing coaches who coached in desirable areas who had success. Obviously, coaching is a key element. But show me a school with a state title dynasty in an economically depressed county. I'll wait.

I showed how the coach is more important than income and jobs. If what you say is true, Kirtland and ML would have been winning titles before their current coaches arrived. Hilliard Davidson would still be a top D1 program after their successful coach left. Your theory does not hold up.

Other examples of schools that have won lots of state titles in depressed areas: Trotwood-Madison, Germantown Valley View, Steubenville, Wheelersburg, Ironton… Then can get into the private schools: Newark Catholic, Youngstown Mooney and Ursuline, Akron St Vincent St Mary’s, Toledo Central Catholic, CAPE…

Coaching followed by talent override income and jobs.

[efarns]

Coaching is clearly important. Nobody said it wasn't.

Here is a current economic map. Steubenville, for example, has never been economically distressed and has even been a boom town at one time. Jefferson county is not what it once was, but it is not an economically distressed county and is within easy commuting distance to economically competitive Pittsburgh. Ironton, for another example, won its state titles years ago, and I'm guessing Ashland was booming at the time? Did the coaches get dumb?

https://www.arc.gov/map/county-economic ... a-fy-2006/

[RollCoal]

Years ago, Ironton had a lot more residents than they do now. Plus, there was a lot of industrial jobs to boot. Most guys could graduate from high school and then either go to work at Armco( AK steel) Ironton Iron, Cement Salvy, Ashland Oil( Marathon Petroleum) or Allied Signal. Only one of those places is currently open, Marathon Petroleum.

My dad worked at Armco. When he hired in, they employed over 3,000 people. When he retired, they cut the staff to around 900. Ironton at one time also had 7 elementary schools. Lombard, West Ironton, Whitwell, Kingsbury, Lawrence Street, Central, and Campbell. Now the elementary and middle schools are in the same building on Delaware Street.

[RBH23]

Coaching is clearly important. Nobody said it wasn't.

Here is a current economic map. Steubenville, for example, has never been economically distressed and has even been a boom town at one time. Jefferson county is not what it once was, but it is not an economically distressed county and is within easy commuting distance to economically competitive Pittsburgh. Ironton, for another example, won its state titles years ago, and I'm guessing Ashland was booming at the time? Did the coaches get dumb?

https://www.arc.gov/map/county-economic ... a-fy-2006/

20% of Steubenville’s population lives below the poverty line. That is not good as you claim!

The other schools and the areas they are in are bad as well even if they are in driving distance from jobs. Seriously, have you been Trotwood, Ohio? Poverty rate is 25%. Newark poverty rate is around 17%. Youngstown poverty rate is 35%. For comparison, Burg’s poverty rate is around 13% (slightly worse than national average). Ironton is at 25%.

Btw, Ashland won a state title in 2020! Did Ashland have an economic boom that year? Also, Pikeville Kentucky, with a poverty rate of 27%, just won their fourth state title in the past five years. Eight state titles in total!!

https://www.wsaz.com/2020/12/19/ashland ... utType=amp

https://www.wymt.com/2023/12/01/pikevil ... utType=amp