Does schedule strength determine post season success?

[Charles Farquar]

It does in that your schedule has to give you enough points to get in the playoffs. But after that what?There are just some years that a team is not going anywhere and scheduling all the brutal competition in season you want is not going to change that, your going to beat who your going to in post season play and it doesnt matter whether every team has a winning record on your schedule or not. Is there validity to the idea of upgrading a schedule will automatically guarantee that you will in time reach the state championship game? Can you make throughbreds out of of plough horses by running the plough horses in a bunch of races against throughbreds? I dont think its a very valid point to say that after a team got in the play offs the reason for their lack of success can be blamed on their league or opponents they played. You play with the hand you have been delt in post season, now what you do with it is your business, and ultimately your own responsibility. The odds are for most of us is that at some point you are going to come up against a better hand that has more advantages. Athletic success is affected by all kinds of things in a lot of schools its down cycles in which they just dont have the athletes that year. On the positive side sometimes if a school gets things going , the kids start to transfer there and they have an advantage. Its not recruiting per say, but the program that experiences success also experiences a snow ball effect.I liked some posts that some Rock Hill people posted on here earlier in the year when they received some heat about the teams they had on their schedule, they made some good points. One poster said schedule schools you can compete with, build rivalries that make the kids want to play harder and they will get better. Schedule games close to home and get a base of fan support.Another said success can be accomplished in other ways like with good coaching and kids working harder.
Something to think about look at some of the teams that played in the state playoffs this year below are there season records and their opponents records. I would say that no matter who they played they already had been delt a pretty good hand. I really think its a mixed bag "UPGRADING A SCHEDULE". You can get a team pretty beat up physically , mentally and emotionally doing that if your not careful.
Teams in this years state playoffs
*Opponent played with a winning record
Division IV Champion Coldwater
*Kenton 7-3 won 21-7
*Marion Local 10-0 lost 35-14
New Bremen 2-8 won 49-7
*Anna 7-3 won 37-8
*St. Henry 6-4 won 42-0
*Parkway 8-2 won 35-14
Minister 0-10 won 60-0
Versailles 2-8 won 49-14
Fort Recovery 5-5 won 45-7
St. Johns 2-8 won 51-7
Division V Final
Marion Local Ursuline
Elida 0-10 won 51-0 East Technical 1-9 won 59-0
*Coldwater 9-1 won 35-14 East Liverpool 0-10 won 56-0
*St. Henry 6-4 won 31-0 Austintown-Finch 1-9 won 21-14
*Parkway 8-2 won 35-13 *Massillon Washington 6-4 L 3-14
Minster 0-10 won 57-0 *Chardon 7-3 won 35-28
Versailles 2-8 won 56-13 Warren Harding 4-6 won 28-13
Fort Recovery 5-5 won 42-10 St. Charles 5-5 won 43-14
St.Johns 2-8 won 44-13 Beaver Local 3-7 won 28-0
* Anna 7-3 won 35-6 *Cardinal Mooney L 14-37
New Bremen 2-8 won 40-0 *St. Vincent 8-2 won33-30
Divison 6 Championship
Hopewell Loudon
*Elmwood 7-3 won 21-7
*Lakota 6-4 won 40-13
Gibsonburg 2-8 won 54-6
St. Joseph 4-6 won 42-7
Seneca East 5-5 won 20-6
*Carey 8-3 won 37-14
*Calvert 6-4 won 26-7
North Baltimore 1-9 won 75-16
St. Wendelin 2-8 won 53-7
Mohawk 5-5 won 42-15

[Mercerville Monster]

I really dont think it matters. I think it helps with situations but if you are talented enough and are well coached I think you will make it through. Does it make your skills better, I dont think so, so I dont think it makes you better.

[Paladin]

Heres a novel thought-- if schedules didn't matter, why are tough teams playing in the Herbstreit ??

Why play in holiday tournaments with tough teams ??

You poor rednecks have been out of the loop for so long, your brains are functionless.

If you have no talent, a tough schedule won't help a thing. If you have some talent, however, a tough schedule forces your kids to play at a higher level of competition, stretches their limits, makes them better. If it didn't, no one would go to the time & expense to match up tough teams. No one of talent would build schedules prepping them for playoff/tournaments . They would play no ones/ anyones. Much like SEO does now !!

Y'all clueless ??

[Mercerville Monster]

1.) The Herbstreit is a money maker and a experience
2.) They play for recognition
3.) Gets your players known in the world of college football

You really think playoffs are on those teams mind when they play in that?

[Paladin]

Prepping for the playoffs ??


You better believe it. Win or lose, it will challenge the players. Competition makes you better , if you have talent.

And for everyone else, fake it !!

[bman618]

If you play in a weak league like many schools in our area do, you better play a tough non-leaguer. You get to see a higher level of competition and it challenges your players to get better. If you roll through 10 cream puffs during the regular season, you're in for a reality check come the first week of the postseason.

[farmer]

Strength of schedule does test you weekly so when you do play in the playoffs you have an idea how your team/players/coaches will react against quality competition. Helps in getting a game plan ready for the playoffs.
I see it as important to schedule a rivalry game that has been going on for years also. There are some games that mean more than records. Just as the WVU vs Pitt game Saturday.

Some schools need to schedule better teams but many are working with a budget and can not travel 3 hours or more to play a game. Also having a home game vs a team that is closer can bring in big gates. Money from football does help to pay for some of the other sports at the school.

A school has to look at a lot of factors. I think good preparation can help get a team to advance in the playoffs. Good coaching staffs can help overcome a weak schedule but it comes down to the players playing the game.
For a team to schedule quality competition all the time they need to have the backing of the administration and fan support that realize that you might have to take your lumps to be able to advance in the playoffs. Not every school has that.

[LICKING COUNTY FAN]

Playing a strong schedule helps and that is the bottom line.

[hilltopkid]

sometimes yes, sometimes no.Just depends.
IF YOP CAN COMPETE OR AT LEAST BENEFIT FROM PLAYING A BETTER TEAM, THAN YES, BUT NOT IF YOU GET YOUR BRAINS BEAT OUT. THAT ONLY TAKES THE KIDS CONFIDENCE AWAY.
I'VE SAID IT BEFORE AND I'LL SAY IT AGAIN--- THE SINGLE MOST IMPORTANT INTANGIBLE IS CONFIDENCE.EXPECTING TO WIN EVERY TIME YOU STEP ON THE FIELD. YOU CAN'T DO THIS IF YOU'RE AT A SCHOOL WITH EXTREME TALENT CYCLES OR A PLACE THAT HAS NEVER EXPERIENCED WINNING CONSISTENTLY.
2 examples that come to mind right away are Westfall-Scheduling C-ville, LE and Teays VAlley were smart moves, but they've been winning.
Portsmouth Notre Dame dropped their tougher competition when they started losing kids etc... and picked up the West Virginia schools .Smart move too, but on the other end of the spectrum

It all just depends on the situation.

A slap-happy Coach or AD that schedules up just for the sake of it, or to say "look who we play", and are not at a program ready to take on that challenge, can be extremely detrimental to a PROGRAM.

PALADIN--Please don't call people rednecks. These days it doesn't mean what you and I think. Have you been out of it that long? A lot of kids take that as a racial slur, whether it is or not(and I know it wasn't). Now if you want to call me that privately, thats fine and probably true in the context you are using.I showed pigs and milked cows through HS. Say it down south or in the inner city, it has a WHOLE different meaning(if you know what I mean) Besides, once you coach at Logan, some would say,you've been labled that for life. You can't shake it just by moving to NE Ohio.

[superblue]

Paladin said "D- IV Mooney over Coldwater. This will be close first half. Cards will pull away in the second. Dominate run game & tough D carry Mooney. " That shows you how smart he really is.........

[Paladin]

Hilltop --

Probably true !!!

However, you know what I'm talking about. This region is the worst in the state for playing weak schedules and ACTUALLY ducking competition. Note, I already said if you have no talent, a tough schedule won't help you. Its the places who do have some talent & do NOTHING to stretch their abilities with better competition. And worse, they do nothing in the Jr. Hi's to challenge their kids either. So the entire system has no higher competition level to compete with.

Why should they be better or competitive then ??

[eagles73Taylor]

Playing a tough schedule is just one aspect of creating a team that can compete throughout the state and into the playoffs. Westfall was the cream of the crop for D IV and when they ran into Coldwater they hit a buzzsaw.

There are other aspects that factor into becoming a strong program and scheduling is a big one. However there are others including talent. Lets face it you cant make chicken salad out of chicken crap.

Another Paladin pointed out is the Jr High level and below. I can only speak for my league, but we have 8 teams so all 7 games are played against league opponents. I have lobbied for playing a 5 game league schedule with 2 open dates so that we can schedule up. We have scrimmaged Chillicothe the last two seasons, so our program is trying.

Also with the lower levels the kids must attend summer camps for football. I am starting this season by having my kids come in for summer workouts and I want to start a fund raiser to get my kids into summer camps for football.

Another important aspect is the community support. This doesnt only mean financial but also keeping their noses out of where it doesnt belong. I heard a quote the other day and it fits here, Praise in public but criticize in private. Parents and community members must fully support the program no matter what their feelings.

A good coaching staff is also vital. Seems silly to say so, but the staff must be in it 100 %. The kids feed off of them. The staff should also make an effort to get the kids involved in local activities to build relationships with the community.

One aspect that is small but does play a role is socioeconomics. Parents are more important in raising strong kids than anyone. If they have a stable environment than the kids will as well.

So there, pretty easy formula to follow, just put all these pieces together and you should have an exceptional team, except that we are dealing with human beings so anything can and will happen! lol

I talked to a guy I played college football with and he made a joke that he wanted to start a football program at his local orphanage. With no parents complaining they could win it all!

[YOU'RE TIGER BAIT]

Hilltop --

Probably true !!!

However, you know what I'm talking about. This region is the worst in the state for playing weak schedules and ACTUALLY ducking competition. Note, I already said if you have no talent, a tough schedule won't help you. Its the places who do have some talent & do NOTHING to stretch their abilities with better competition. And worse, they do nothing in the Jr. Hi's to challenge their kids either. So the entire system has no higher competition level to compete with.

Why should they be better or competitive then ??

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------PALADIN, I CHALLENGE YOU TO SAY IRONTON PLAYS A WEAK SCHEDULE. THEY'VE PLAYED MONSTERS FOR DECADES. WE HAVE STRUGGLED , THE LAST COUPLE YEARS, BUT EVERY 35 YEARS OR SO, YOU MAY NEED TO RELOAD. ARE YOU THE VILLAGE IDIOT, ER WHUT.

[hilltopkid]

Hilltop --

Probably true !!!

However, you know what I'm talking about. This region is the worst in the state for playing weak schedules and ACTUALLY ducking competition. Note, I already said if you have no talent, a tough schedule won't help you. Its the places who do have some talent & do NOTHING to stretch their abilities with better competition. And worse, they do nothing in the Jr. Hi's to challenge their kids either. So the entire system has no higher competition level to compete with.

Why should they be better or competitive then ??

Good points. Don't know about the "ducking" part, but I'm sure it happens.
This is unrelated, but it was nice to see so many central Ohio teams in the latter part of the play-offs.
Gotta mention one for my home-boys.It's funny how just one or two counties over(going from the South Region to the Central Region) can reveal such a noticible difference in talent and overall team abitlity.Now, before any one gets upset, I'm talking as a whole.There are definitely good, no great, programs in every region, including the south. Just look at some of the teams that lie right on the border--Lancaster, Canal, Amanda, Fairfield Union, Sheridan, Fisher Catholic, etc... You could really even throw in Picktown Central, b/c they draw from a few rural parts of Fairfield Co.If Pickaway county is considerd Central(which Im not quite sure) there could even be a few more teams you could throw in. I know they're not all big playoff contenders or considerd big dogs, but as a whole, those programs are always competitive. Just think Paladin, if Logan was only about 10-15 miles north, you'd be a part of the illustrious Central Region.lol MAy not be entirely true, but thats the way I see it.Maybe it's because I grew up their and am familiar w/ those teams.

Another positive when it comes to tougher competition is the fact that it may just make that staff prepare more than they might usually, even unintentionally.
When we talk about an individual player at any given position, we know that if he has someone pushing him from behind for PT, we're going to get his best performance or he'll just concede. This old saying "Fear is a great MOTIVATOR" usually holds true. This is the same way with coaches. If he has a very tough schedule, and wants to keep his job, he may work just a little bit harder, or watch more film or have an extra walk-through.

[2old]

GAHS (the editor)

I am convinced you believe the stuff you post. However, I do not agree. I will give an example. Gallia came into Logan fully confident in their defense. Go back and check the pregame post. What was the reasoning behind believing the defense was good. Back to back shut outs of PT. and VC. I do not think anyone will argue that by the end of the night, Logan had ruined the myth about that defense. The point being a weak schedule gives a team a false sense of being good. This is almost as bad as getting your head kicked in as Logan does against Lancaster.

As many have said, scheduling is a funny animal. You CAN NOT schedule way over your head. However, a TEAM needs to be STRETCHED. This can not be done by simply renewing existing contracts with teams already on your schedule. It is just the sign of a lazy AD. That is just telling the truth. and yes you MAY have to travel for a decent opponent.

Looking at Gallia for next year, here is an honest appraisal.

PT. weak opponent, but strong gate. I will give you that combination once a year.

Logan, probably too strong an opponent next year, but it has history that indicatges some good games. Logan is by far the toughest game on the schedule next year.

I believe the other two games are Wellston and Athens. The only card you can play here is geography. Both of these teams are weak. Playing them will give Gallia no chance to improve. Gallia will not even be able to work on timing.

Logan non conference:

Lancaster... a killer, Classic example of over scheduling. Logan can "hope" to win this game once every 10 years. There are many other quality teams Logan could schedule and coule beat 3-5 times in a 10 year period.

Pick North Quality opponent. Not as strong as i thought they would be by now, b ut I would say this is a program to watch. I am speaking over the next 5 years.

Gallia I think this was a convenient game for both ad's. Really is not going to help Logan or Gallia much in the next two years. But a long history, so I guess it fits in under the PT. Pleasant Exclusion.

Open date beter than playing Athens. It was also scheduled out of convenience.

I still beleive to get better you have to play better. It is a growing process. I have seen it work. Hard to argue with Logan's success within the league.

[hilltopkid]

As many have said, scheduling is a funny animal. You CAN NOT schedule way over your head. However, a TEAM needs to be STRETCHED. This can not be done by simply renewing existing contracts with teams already on your schedule. It is just the sign of a lazy AD. That is just telling the truth. and yes you MAY have to travel for a decent opponent.

I still beleive to get better you have to play better. It is a growing process. I have seen it work. Hard to argue with Logan's success within the league.

I see what you're sauing 2old, but I don't think a lot of poeple realize another part of this equation that can be very frustrating.That's the task of sheduling itself. I know that I NEVER realized how hard it was, untill I had to do it. It's easy to criticize and come up with a lot of ideas, but if you've never done it, you honestly don't know what a beast it can be.Especially if you've been given limitations on distance to travel etc... The other thing no one has mentined is how far down the line you have to schedule these games. Most schools have their schedules filled (or partially anyways) 4-5 even 6 years in advance. How do you know what your programs going to be like that far ahead. You may be in a really down year, yet you scheduled the non-conf. games 5 years ago, and they're killers.
It's also a lot harder than one would think just to find the ideal match at the exact time you have an opening. then you better hope they have the same needs you do as far as home or away, b/c if not you could be stuck playing 6-7 away games and only have 3-4 games to draw off the gate(which unfortunatley, plays into the decision most times)
I realize what every one is saying, and I agree w/ most of you, but I'm just not sure some are looking at the details of scheduling.

[2old]

Hilltop,

I never implies it was easy. That is why they call it a "job".It is a growing thing. However, it is EASY to just renew contracts every year. I doubt you use the same game plan every year. Or make it real simple, Have only one game plan for the year. My point is that with some work most schedules can be improved.

Take the SEOAL if you are AD you have 6 games given to you. I am giving each team that one cozy feel good game(PT.VS Gallia). That leaves the AD three games to fill. He is getting paid to schedule 10 and in reality only needs to be imaginative 3 times. A coaches job should be so easy.

[2old]

BTW,

To answer your question about how are you going to know about if a program is up or down. That is why I prefer to talk about 10 years. It takes into account those types of years. I have watched Logan V Lancaster. i feel this is a once in 10 year(hopefully) victory for Logan. I just prefer a 3-5 year success in a 10 year history.

However if it comes to scheduling VC or Lancaster, i am sure the kids get much more out of the Lancaster game.

[hilltopkid]

Hilltop,

A coaches job should be so easy.

Yes it should, but it aint.
Putting your family, pride career on a bunch of 15-18 year olds and answering to higher ups that may not give you professional freedom is a breeze. I don't think so.
I don't always agree or disagree w/ anything you say, but that might be the most ignorant thing I've ever heard. That proves to me one thing--you've never coached. Saying things to get a response is cute and all and we know thats your bit, but man think about what you just said.
Wow.
You've played the game, so it's fine to comment on that and know the feeling of doing it, but by that one response I can tell a) you've never coached and b) you've never scheduled for a school that has and AD hat puts limitations on who/where you play and what kind of gate each team will bring etc...
I really shouldn't be surprised by anything you say, but that is nuts. I thought you at least had respect for the profession.

[YOU'RE TIGER BAIT]

2OLD, PALADIN, LETS GET SOMETHING STRAIGHT.

i'm growing weary of seeing you two village nobodie's talking about ironton the way you do. hell, we have not ducked anybody. first off , show me ANY TEAM IN THE SOUTH, with a 35 year run like the ironton fighting tigers. barely a d4 team. that totally dominated the ENTIRE SEOAL, for decades. they left the conference because , at that time, it was not even a contest to win that league. they left for greener pastures, and produced a eun of playoffs equalled only , by stuebenville , i believe. we have played monster schools many times our size for years. from all over the country. we play 1 team from canada, ST. THOMAS MORE, who i might add for 2 years now. have won the canadian equivalent to a national championship. and they were tough. i wonder how logan would have faired. since you COMPLETELY MAULED US 7-0. THAT YEAR AS A DIV. 1 TEAM. and we gave the game away , fumbling in the mud, 3 times within your own 5 yard line. we both played in the same conditions, mind you. but you were not consistently in our redzone, as we were yours. 1 single play. amounted to what you all called a monumental a$$ whoopin, HARDLY. in logan alone we have beaten you like 16 of the last 21 times. you can squak like a parrot all you want about the last 2 years. which have , to say the least, have been rebuilding years. you both know the beast within , THE BELLY OF THE IRONTON FIGHTING TIGERS WILL SOON OWN YOU AGAIN. THEN I DON'T WANT TO HEAR JACK CRAP, ABOUT KY. SCHOOLS. most of which, have won more state championships, than logan has playoff victories. or the 1 year we played the canadian national champions, and beat them handily. so babble on, you two twerps are actually keeping good people off the football forum, by hijacking every post . beating your chest about the GRAPE APES. PLAY SOMEBODY , ALL READY. THEN GLOAT. mean while enjoy your little 4 peat stuff. we've probably still got as many seoal titles as you, and we were out of the conference , for what 20 years. BOB LUTZ IS LOGAN'S DADDY. TAKE THAT TO THE BANK. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- AND WHATCHA GONNA DO WHEN IRONTON RELOADS , AND BLOWS UP ON YOU, BROTHER.