3rd annual "Are Power Cleans Good for Football" Debate

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Boonedawg
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Re: 3rd annual "Are Power Cleans Good for Football" Debate

Post by Boonedawg » Tue Jun 17, 2008 6:45 pm

I've got my kid out flopping a tractor tire over and over and tossing a couple hay bales everyday. He's deffinatley getting stronger while the rest of the boys are on their butts playing xbox.



madpolecat
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Re: 3rd annual "Are Power Cleans Good for Football" Debate

Post by madpolecat » Wed Jun 18, 2008 5:27 pm

Where did I say that, mtswngrvsg?

whspirate
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Re: 3rd annual "Are Power Cleans Good for Football" Debate

Post by whspirate » Fri Jun 20, 2008 3:11 am

Power cleans are better period. It is like anything else however, if not tought properly then the risks could be greater than the benefits. That is why a lot of high school coaches do not teach the technique. Plus they just do not know how to teach it.

From personal experiance I can say that platform lifts which include power cleans, did the most for my speed and vertical vs anything else.

The key is making sure that Platform lifts start very basic and make sure that regular squats both front and back are a part of the teaching process. Then you continue to build off the basics towards growth of full platform lifts.

It all has to run together or you will not maximize full benefits!

That is how it is done at the college level.

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boogerred
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Re: 3rd annual "Are Power Cleans Good for Football" Debate

Post by boogerred » Fri Jun 20, 2008 11:11 am

Let's change it up here a little.

What about hanging cleans?

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Re: 3rd annual "Are Power Cleans Good for Football" Debate

Post by boogerred » Mon Jun 23, 2008 7:43 am

If done correctly cleans are like a modified high pull and a deep front squat - two lifts at once. The reason people say cleans are 'dangerous' is that many kids lack the flexibility to drop down into the low front squat position.

I watched the US Collegiate Nationals this weekend and saw a guy clean 210 kilos (he missed the jerk part)!!!
The guy didn't look freakish; rather, he looked like an athletic heavyweight wrestler.

Cleans are great!

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Re: 3rd annual "Are Power Cleans Good for Football" Debate

Post by miltard52 » Mon Jun 23, 2008 1:28 pm

[quote="boogerred"]If done correctly cleans are like a modified high pull and a deep front squat - two lifts at once. The reason people say cleans are 'dangerous' is that many kids lack the flexibility to drop down into the low front squat position.

I watched the US Collegiate Nationals this weekend and saw a guy clean 210 kilos (he missed the jerk part)!!!
The guy didn't look freakish; rather, he looked like an athletic heavyweight wrestler.

boogerred i agree with you 100% b/c in football power cleans work on your speed coming off the line...and bench is good for you too but ppl don't understand what does bench help with? Im a logan high school student and been lifting for years and realized that bench is only to brag bout...ppl don't ask other ppl how much that they squat or anything. like u said power cleans are good for you and great for football :122245

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boogerred
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Re: 3rd annual "Are Power Cleans Good for Football" Debate

Post by boogerred » Wed Jun 25, 2008 11:12 am

When I was taught how to clean, there was no emphasis on dropping your butt down below the weight. I was basically taught a reverse barbell swing curl.

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Re: 3rd annual "Are Power Cleans Good for Football" Debate

Post by madpolecat » Wed Jun 25, 2008 1:40 pm

One of the things that seems to happen a lot with cleaning is that most people teach the POWER CLEAN because it is easier with a faster learning curve than the CLEAN AND JERK.

Of course, in a football weightroom setting with many athletes lifting at once, it is easier to teach the power clean rather than emphasizing taking the lift deep and doing the full front squat with the weight. Teaching olympic-style cleaning takes a lot of time and supervision, and I am not sure how realistic it is for high school weight rooms to pull off that level of individual coaching.

The HANG CLEAN is also easier to teach, I think, so football coaches like it too.

A coaching colleague of mine said that he wouldn't use power cleans for his high school program because when he was in college, they had a strength coach who absolutely crammed olympic-style lifting down their throats and that it caused many guys to have shoulder problems.

Fair enough; one goes and learns from one's experiences, but to limit your learning by what has been your immediate experience is a mistake; looking without further analysis is a mistake.

I never did get to look at the program design that was "causing" these injuries, so it is hard to say whether the cleans, the programs, or something else was causing those shoulder injuries. My colleague did tell me that there was A LOT OF STEROID USAGE in that program. Could the belief that cleans are bad (a notion carried in from previous experience) have been reinforced by all those injuries, problems that may have been caused by other issues OR the interaction of those issues and cleans.

If you think about it that way, no wonder an NFL strength coach (Dan Riley was mentioned) would say cleans were bad for his players, considering what the anecdotal evidence about NFL steroid usage tells us? (An aside -- I would be interested in knowing if Dan Riley has his players deadlift, though.)

Of course, Gary Wrobeleski was the strength coach for Marty Schottenheimer with the Browns in the 1980s (the Drive, the Fumble era). I know Gary personally, and he SWEARS by cleans.

Another knock against cleans on this forum was that they are not safe. I guess that it is my belief that anything in this world can be safe or unsafe depending on how it is handled. I know of one fairly serious injury involving cleans (a broken wrist/arm).

If I remember correctly, the kid tried to lean the weight back at the top. He was in a lousy position for executing the lift. He was in a position I KNOW that he had never been shown as a way to execute the lift. If he were in the correct position, he would have dumped the weight forward, not back on himself. We have all seeen lousy squats that have resulted in injured kids, yet we still work the squat.

One striking example does not the truth of the matter define, unless it is a truth in which you are already firmly entrenched. I think that social scientists call that “confirmation bias.”

As far as the Louie Simmons vs. Greg Shepard debate goes, these two men are going to have radically different opinions on the issue. Simmons has a very serious powerlifting background; he may be the absolute best powerlifting coach in the world. Shepard’s background is more with track and field. Track people, throwing people especially, swear by cleans because they see the use of the entire body to generate maximum force as being well-trained by the olympic lifts. Many would say that this also applies to football, which is a game of POWER (the ability to express strength quickly) rather than strength. Boyd Epley and his people have written extensively about this topic.

Can you train to squat and deadlift explosively? Of course you can. Nobody doubts this fact. But when it comes to powerlifting competition time, without the time factor as part of the competitive yardstick, explosiveness is immaterial. It can be argued that powerlifting is mis-named, anyway, because there are no bonus points for lifting 700 pounds in 1.0 seconds as opposed to 1.7.

I think Shepard actually did coach high school football at one point in his career; I don’t know if Simmons did coach football. These two guys are in completely different businesses (except for the fact that they both sell a LOT of gym equipment). Shepard is trying to develop athletic skills in young people. Simmons is training the biggest, baddest powerlifters on the planet, and people want to know if that knowledge can help their football players be successful.

Simmons’ techniques can make kids stronger, yes. And is a stronger individual better than he was when he was weaker? Of course. Simmons’ stuff is probably good for training high school football players.

Most of the arguments against cleans are based in safety issues. I don’t see how those arguments hold water, especially when it is clear that coaching and supervision are the keys to doing cleans safely. I am sure that folks on BOTH sides of the debate want their kids well-supervised and well-coached in the weightroom.

I love how this topic always turns into the sports equivalent of the abortion debate LOL

I think that it would be great if somebody around this region could get a private gym started and maybe put together an olympic-style weightlifting team to compete.

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Re: 3rd annual "Are Power Cleans Good for Football" Debate

Post by cadmus sasquatch » Wed Jun 25, 2008 10:32 pm

Karl, there is a Olympic lifting team in Columbus Oh, and Wheeling Wv I am Pretty sure.

Not in our area but you can check it out still pretty close I know you do not mind to travel, they have a meet at the Ohio state fair. every year.

On another note, you talk about shepard and Lou, training differant things one young football players and the other Powerlifters.

Lou coaches or helps alot more than PowerLifters
I have a great friend, you met him before Jerry Pain who started going there some. he is just or was an average lifter until his last meet his numbers changed BIG TIME.

Lou also coaches many High school football player that are on there way to college, I have some great articles about this kid who went to more head his 40 time was dropped dramaticlly in just I think 3 months you may be able to find the article on there site or eltefs.

Than we got many nfl football teams he has worked with, and college football teams. mma fighters, soccer players,

Now there is this thing wich is a money maker called westside certification.
a bunch of major universities are making there strength coaches and interns get this certification, so it must be pretty good for football other than just Powerlifting. All kinds of sports have got major bennifits from westside and I am sure alot have from bfs as well.

as for a max lift You have to be very explosve to move absolute weight.
if you are moving 135 as fast as you can, you are pushing 300 with the same amount of force, the bar might not be moving as fast but you are still pushing as hard and as quick as you can think about it.

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Re: 3rd annual "Are Power Cleans Good for Football" Debate

Post by 91blue14 » Wed Jun 25, 2008 10:42 pm

you should have structured workouts by position. skilled positions could use more reps in something like squats. you are on the field to make your opponent miss and drive those legs on contact ;-)

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Re: 3rd annual "Are Power Cleans Good for Football" Debate

Post by Girevik » Thu Oct 12, 2017 3:19 pm

Come to Ukraine!

We Train!

Opponent will feel the Pain!

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