Enrollment, Division, Classification, etc.

[billcox]

Why is it that every single discussion on here about two teams playing each other has to turn into an argument about Enrollment, Division, Classification, etc.? If the smaller team losses then their fans automatically say, "well we should have lost to the bigger team". Why not just own up to the fact that your team lost the game and discuss what they can do to get better? Doesn't the "school size" excuse ever get old?

Also, the whining about a school being at an advantage or disadvantage because they are at the top or bottom of their classification, enrollment wise, has become quite ridiculous. Face it people, as long as the OHSAA assigns schools to divisions based on their enrollment, this so-called problem will always exist. If anyone has a better idea for how to assign schools to divisions then please contact the OHSAA. If not then please stop crying about the current format and deal with it!

[ironman02]

Very well said. School size obviously is a factor when it comes to high school sports and the OHSAA does a pretty good job of taking that into consideration. However, it is not THE determining factor. There will always be complaints, but I just don't really see a good answer that will solve everyone's "problems". Enrollment size is used way too often as an excuse for losses instead of just admitting that you were beaten by a better team. In fact, many people focus almost entirely on school size even when not discussing actual wins and losses. Play the schedule that you have and accept the results!

[trojandave]

When Portsmouth was invited to join the SEOAL, our school administration voted UNANIMOUSLY to become a member, despite knowing that we would be the smallest school in the league. I am very proud to see my Trojans competing in the SEOAL, and, yes, there are considerable differences in enrollment, but we went 8-2 last year.....undefeated in the South Division.....and made the playoffs. Despite our size, we have proven that we can have a very good season playing a schedule of bigger schools.

And if we have a bad season, we just need to get better!!!

Portsmouth High School is a proud member of the SEOAL!!!

[trojandave]

One thing that annoys me when there is talk about classification is some people will talk of playing "up" or "down" a division, when in fact the difference in enrollment may only be 5-10 boys. Some make it sound like there is a BIG difference between divisions, when in fact the difference may be very small in numbers.

[warrnwarriorfan]

Enrollment is discussed because it IS a relevant factor. If it wasn't a factor the OHSAA wouldn't have any divisions at all. Enrollment is a factor as well as the number of sports that a school attempts to support with that enrollment, the economics of the school district, the geography of the school district and whether a school is public or private.

Why in the heck should these factors NOT be discussed?

[Army]

One thing about Chillicothe, we love the SEOAL.

Look at our schedule year in, year out in Football.

We are not complaining

Next years season, will be the first time in I don't remember how far back, that we have scheduled an MSL-Buckeye Team...Columbus Hamilton TWP D2 in a two year series. We lose Columbus Brookhaven D1.

Logan has Hamilton TWP in a 3 year series starting this season right?

We also replace Sheridan D3 from the MVL after this years game that we have a one year series with, to another one year series with, Wilmington D3 from the Fort Ancient League.

We also keep Zanesville D2 on our non-league schedule after they go independent in the 2009-2010 and 2010-2011 season. As far as it stands now, we have Sunbury Big Walnut D3 from the OCC-Capital until the 2010-2011 season. That means we will have played them in a 6 year series when it's said and done with. We played them in the 2005-2006 season while both our schools were in the OCC-Capital together, and as an SEOAL member playing them in non-league competition from 2006 through the 2010 football season.

GO CAVS

GO SEOAL

[loganlocos]

Enrollment is discussed because it IS a relevant factor. If it wasn't a factor the OHSAA wouldn't have any divisions at all. Enrollment is a factor as well as the number of sports that a school attempts to support with that enrollment, the economics of the school district, the geography of the school district and whether a school is public or private.

Why in the heck should these factors NOT be discussed?

I don't think anyone is saying it's not relevant or shouldn't be discussed.

But people IGNORE a lot of other factors (including the OHSAA) when determining "what's fair."

For instance, is it fair to compare URBAN areas, where people truly have a CHOICE where to send their kids to school to RURAL areas where schools are so spread out that it's impractical to "choose" the school to send their kids.

Is it fair to compare public and parochial schools?


There is a difference between "discussion" and "obsession." Some people around here are "obsessed" with enrollment, which is far beyond "discussion."

[Zanes-Vegas]

As many of you probably remember, the OHSAA tried to remedy the "size" issue in Divisions I and VI about a year or so ago, coming up with some plan that was supposed to even things out. Then it was obvious it was still hosing some schools, especially the smallest ones, and it was scrapped.

The truth is Divisions II through V are fairly well distributed. There isn't that much disparity in size between the biggest school in Division II and the smallest one, for example. But the top and bottom divisions are not necessarily so (especially Division I, where the top end is, well, unlimited).

We've had to live with this in several sports this year, outside of football, where we seem firmly entrenched in Division II. We were just a handful of boys over the Division I limit in boys basketball, boys soccer and baseball.

In basketball, I've got to think we'd have been a prohibitive favorite to face Chillicothe in the Regional final in Division II. Instead, we get shipped to the Central District and get nudged by Newark in a District final. Though they are a rival and we play them all the time in things, Newark has a distinct "student body" advantage on us -- our OHSAA enrollment number is 416, theirs is 674.

In baseball, I've also got to think we'd have been back in the regional for the fourth straight year had we been in Division II. Instead, we were THREE boys over the Division I limit. We beat Dublin Coffman (691) on our field, then Watkins Memorial (comparable at 429) in the district semifinal before losing a close game to Hilliard Darby (888) in the district final.

The sad thing is that our boys enrollment number, taken this past year, would not have been close to that 416. It certainly wouldn't be this year, either, but we are stuck with it for another year. Consider this -- the largest school in Division I is Fairfield (1,246) -- three times our size! But the differential between the smallest and largest schools in Division II baseball is only 181 boys.

However, I do agree that if you're scheduled to play someone who's either bigger or smaller than you are, that's your choice (pretty much) and the excuse of size differential is moot. I know there are some wide differentials within leagues (for example, between Tri-Valley and Crooksville in the Muskingum Valley League), but "size shouldn't matter" in the regular season -- except for those all-important computer points!

[warrnwarriorfan]

See, this seems like reasonable discussion to me.

It's just part of the landscape . . .

[Army]

It's not so much the enrollement and division as the school. It's the talent.

There are several schools in (SE-Ohio) that fields better teams than some of the larger schools they play.

Take for example these few mighty football teams we have in SE-Ohio that continue to field great teams, year in and year out.

A. The Nelsonville-York D5 Buckeyes: that are from the TVC-Ohio Division. They will continue to defeat The Plains Athens D3 Bulldogs that joined the TVC-Ohio this year. This is nothing new for the Buckeyes. As one said last year, the victory now will count as a conference win, instead of a non-conference win. McArthur Vinton County D3 Vikings is a larger school in the TVC-Ohio too. NY continues to have their number year in and year out.

A few years back in the 90s, NY D5 dominated a Jackson Ironmen D3 Team at Jackson.

B. The Wheelersburg D5 Pirates : from the SOC II is another example. Defeating Ironton D4 and other schools, such as Waverly both as a former D3 and now D4.

C. The Westfall D4 Mustangs : from the SVC is another school that comes to mind. They have dominated all three MSL Buckeye Division Teams year in and year out. Ashville Teays Valley D2, Circleville Logan Elm D3 and Circleville D3.

[Army]

As many of you probably remember, the OHSAA tried to remedy the "size" issue in Divisions I and VI about a year or so ago, coming up with some plan that was supposed to even things out. Then it was obvious it was still hosing some schools, especially the smallest ones, and it was scrapped.

The truth is Divisions II through V are fairly well distributed. There isn't that much disparity in size between the biggest school in Division II and the smallest one, for example. But the top and bottom divisions are not necessarily so (especially Division I, where the top end is, well, unlimited).

We've had to live with this in several sports this year, outside of football, where we seem firmly entrenched in Division II. We were just a handful of boys over the Division I limit in boys basketball, boys soccer and baseball.

In basketball, I've got to think we'd have been a prohibitive favorite to face Chillicothe in the Regional final in Division II. Instead, we get shipped to the Central District and get nudged by Newark in a District final. Though they are a rival and we play them all the time in things, Newark has a distinct "student body" advantage on us -- our OHSAA enrollment number is 416, theirs is 674.

In baseball, I've also got to think we'd have been back in the regional for the fourth straight year had we been in Division II. Instead, we were THREE boys over the Division I limit. We beat Dublin Coffman (691) on our field, then Watkins Memorial (comparable at 429) in the district semifinal before losing a close game to Hilliard Darby (888) in the district final.

The sad thing is that our boys enrollment number, taken this past year, would not have been close to that 416. It certainly wouldn't be this year, either, but we are stuck with it for another year. Consider this -- the largest school in Division I is Fairfield (1,246) -- three times our size! But the differential between the smallest and largest schools in Division II baseball is only 181 boys.

However, I do agree that if you're scheduled to play someone who's either bigger or smaller than you are, that's your choice (pretty much) and the excuse of size differential is moot. I know there are some wide differentials within leagues (for example, between Tri-Valley and Crooksville in the Muskingum Valley League), but "size shouldn't matter" in the regular season -- except for those all-important computer points!

Zane Vegas,

I and many (Chillicothe Fans) would agree to disagree with your assessment there

We are 3-1 over your Blue Devils since entering the SEOAL. And last years game at Chillicothe you all did not attempt to make up. In that both our schools defeated Newark D1 State Champions, earlier this season, the Wildcats were prepared in game 2 at the District Final. Just as our CAVS would have been. Especially, in a third game at the CONVO, the way the CAVS were playing by the time they reached the Regional Final.

That is, if you all would of still been D2

But...could of, would of, should of is not the result

I agree with your review of the numbers to an extent. Look at Chillicothe in 2000-2001 school year to what we will have in 2008-2009 school year. We went from D1 status to D3 over night.

[loganlocos]

Army -

ZV didn't say the Blue Devils would have been favored to BEAT the Cavs, just to PLAY the Cavs in the regional final.

If you disagree, who besides Chillicothe in Division 2 would have beaten Zanesville in the tournament?

[billcox]

Enrollment is discussed because it IS a relevant factor. If it wasn't a factor the OHSAA wouldn't have any divisions at all. Enrollment is a factor as well as the number of sports that a school attempts to support with that enrollment, the economics of the school district, the geography of the school district and whether a school is public or private.

Why in the heck should these factors NOT be discussed?

I don't think anyone is saying it's not relevant or shouldn't be discussed.

But people IGNORE a lot of other factors (including the OHSAA) when determining "what's fair."

For instance, is it fair to compare URBAN areas, where people truly have a CHOICE where to send their kids to school to RURAL areas where schools are so spread out that it's impractical to "choose" the school to send their kids.

Is it fair to compare public and parochial schools?


There is a difference between "discussion" and "obsession." Some people around here are "obsessed" with enrollment, which is far beyond "discussion."

I couldn't have said it any better myself!

Something that many people never seem to take into consideration is the geographical make-up (rural, urban, etc.) of a district. For example, a team being classified as D3 doesn't necessarily guarantee that they have a D3 size talent pool to draw athletes from. A perfect example of this would be Vinton County. Many people get on this very site and preach about how they should be defeating the other teams in the TVC because they are "bigger". The fact of the matter is that while VC may have the enrollment of a D3 school, they certainly don't draw from the same size talent pool that a normal D3 school does. Vinton County is the only high school in the county which is a very rural area. Therefore, many of the kids that are counted towards their enrollment figures live so far from the school that they don't even consider playing sports, especially in this day of $4 dollar/gallon gas. Another prime example similar to that of VC is Logan. People are constantly on this site preaching about how they should be winning the SEOAL becasue they are a borderline D1/D2 school. The fact is that Logan is the only school in Hocking county and therefore faces the same type of problems that VC does. Long commutes to school/practice and back home make it very difficult for some kids to participate.

[lhsfan97]

gahs4ever,

you make very good points and I agree with your post 100%.

The part about Athens getting out of the league due to travel expenses is a very good point.

All schools are feeling the crunch because of school costs. I can tell you how much it cost Lancaster 2 years ago to transport its athletic teams for both high school and middle school. that cost was $138,000. I know this because budget cuts by the school district placed this burdon on the Athletic Boosters. That figure was when diesal fuel prices were under $3 a gallon so I don't even want to think what the cost would be today.

travel expenses is one of the main reasons the OCC (the largest Conference in the state with 32 teams) had to realign its divisions to be more geographic and change the rules about having high schools in the same school dirstrict play each other in Conference games.

Maybe the SEOAL will have to take that more into consideration in the near future

[Army]

Army -

ZV didn't say the Blue Devils would have been favored to BEAT the Cavs, just to PLAY the Cavs in the regional final.

If you disagree, who besides Chillicothe in Division 2 would have beaten Zanesville in the tournament?

Circleville Logan Elm D2 from the MSL-Buckeye

[warrnwarriorfan]

If folks would be as thoughtful about this issue as many have been in this thread, it could actually increase the respect that teams have for each other when obvious disparities arise. Teams on the losing end against a bigger and/or more urban school could say, "Hey, we left it all on the field and they know they were in a ball game." The winning teams could respect the losing (smaller) team for the same reason. I'm pretty sure that's an example of sportsmanship. Maybe we'll have more of that this year.