If you were coach??

[greygoose]

So it's the off-season but season is right around the corner with just about 2 months left till 1st game of the year. This is something I read awhile back and was curious as to people's thoughts on it and wondering why more coaches don't employ this tactic. My question is this if you were coach would you/could you do it or would you play it more traditionally? A coach that never punts and always attempts onside kicks. Those of you that follow your respected teams think about how many times you've watched the opposing team return the punt for a nice return or setup at midfield off a kickoff.


https://www.citizen-times.com/story/spo ... /17213961/

The numbers support what he's doing as does his overall record.

[Paladin]

I call BS.

Most coaches who win over a prolonged time have superior talent vs the teams they play. Not because of some great coaching ability. Serious judgement should be withheld until these are known -

1. How many 4th downs a game do they have ?

2 How many yards needed - long or short ?

3. Location of 4th down - your territory or theirs ?

4. How was 4th down gained - run or pass?

5. How many 4th downs converted by penalty ?

All that will tell me the level of competition played. Asheville is by far the largest city in Western N.C. All the other towns are much smaller and by extension, the size of schools as well. As for state titles, N. C. Isn’t a hot bed for national recruiting.

[greygoose]

If you read the article you'll see none of those questions you asked even matter, he's gone for it on 4th down inside his own 10 yard line.
In the past 11 years, Kelley is 124-22 and has won three state titles at a school that had reached the state semifinals just twice in the previous 40 seasons. Given your last statement shouldn't this program have done far more in it's previous 40 years compared to it's last 11?? I don't care where you are any team that goes 124-22 is doing something right. As you can see from the article other coaches where a big heck no they couldn't do it. Like it says as an OC if your coach says we're not punting you have 4 downs it changes the play calling quite a bit. It's not a debate it's simply if you were a coach would you have the b$lls to coach it this way? They converted 4th down 50% of the time and recovered 20% of onside kicks. Everyone uses Burg as an example, so let's use it here, 2017 offense was just about unstoppable is there any difference in you giving them the ball at your own let's say 20 and they score or they go 60 yards and score?? Best defense is to keep your opponent off the field. Who cares about N.C and national recruiting, numbers speak for themselves on what they school had done vs what the school is doing which even knocks your reasoning even more. I for one love the idea and the numbers behind it, but man you better make it work for you or that's a quick way to get ran out of town. LOL.

[Omega]

I call BS.

Most coaches who win over a prolonged time have superior talent vs the teams they play. Not because of some great coaching ability. Serious judgement should be withheld until these are known -

1. How many 4th downs a game do they have ?

2 How many yards needed - long or short ?

3. Location of 4th down - your territory or theirs ?

4. How was 4th down gained - run or pass?

5. How many 4th downs converted by penalty ?

All that will tell me the level of competition played. Asheville is by far the largest city in Western N.C. All the other towns are much smaller and by extension, the size of schools as well. As for state titles, N. C. Isn’t a hot bed for national recruiting.

Pulaski Academy is a 5A school in Little Rock, Arkansas, not North Carolina. However you are probably correct that the school, being private, likely has better talent than their opponents. The "no kick" thing seems to be a psychological advantage that frustrates opposing teams and alters their game week prep.

If I were a coach, I might employ the strategy in parts of a game as a ruse. Uncertainty by your opponent is an advantage, which is why a few small schools in the Carolinas still use the single-wing, veer, or jail break offenses to their advantage. The opponents play you once a year so their preparation for something unusual is difficult.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=vbgqKHxzTfU

[rxburgfan]

it’s worked for him. So keep at it.

[wobycat]

Pulaski Academy has bigger faster stronger and smarter athletes than their opponents. Therefore they can do whatever they want
Trimble would be safe doing this in probably 7 of it’s ten games every year
It’s about the jimmys and joes not the Xs and Os

That’s true. A real good team can beat anyone without a coach. They don’t even need pads. They just have to draw a few plays up in the dirt. Heck they don’t even have to do that. They can tell the other team what they are running and still would not be stopped.

[fortdawg]

You could go for it and never punt, but you better have 4 cousins and an uncle on the school board.
There will come a game where you went for it inside your own ten and didn't make it---and lose a close one.
Your fans will not be impressed----especially if this game was for a league championship or a spot in the playoffs.

We have all seen instances where someone converted a 4th and long and it is exciting.....but I would think with 2 evenly matched teams the team that punts would have an advantage.
I believe I could find an ex-Ohio State coach who would agree.

I find the idea of always onside kicking more intriguing---but then again if you always onside your opponent would put more kids closer to the line and this could defeat that advantage.
Interesting topic though.

[greygoose]

Pulaski Academy has bigger faster stronger and smarter athletes than their opponents. Therefore they can do whatever they want
Trimble would be safe doing this in probably 7 of it’s ten games every year
It’s about the jimmys and joes not the Xs and Os

So the previous 40 seasons before this coach came in 11 yrs ago and started doing it this way we're what?? They just start getting these type of players you describe within the last 10 yrs and they weren't there before?

[greygoose]

You could go for it and never punt, but you better have 4 cousins and an uncle on the school board.
There will come a game where you went for it inside your own ten and didn't make it---and lose a close one.
Your fans will not be impressed----especially if this game was for a league championship or a spot in the playoffs.

We have all seen instances where someone converted a 4th and long and it is exciting.....but I would think with 2 evenly matched teams the team that punts would have an advantage.
I believe I could find an ex-Ohio State coach who would agree.

I find the idea of always onside kicking more intriguing---but then again if you always onside your opponent would put more kids closer to the line and this could defeat that advantage.
Interesting topic though.

I find the always onsiding more interesting as well, if they're recovering it 20% of the time could be worth it as in high school unless you've got a big kicker you probably only give up 15-20 yards in most cases. I'd be curious to see if he sticks to the strict no punting come playoff time.

[Zunardo]

it’s worked for him. So keep at it.

10-4. And I don't mean season results.

Should all coaches try this out? It certainly may be appropriate for some programs. But, as someone said, realize that if you're going to live by the sword, your chances of dying by it go up also.

Personally, I think there are simply too many variables at the high school level that also influence the game to say it will become the norm, the way no-huddle offenses have taken over.

We had a new coach about 15 years ago who came highly-touted because he was successful at his previous school out-of-state (which had smaller players against bigger and faster schools), because he ran something innovative like a version of a double-wing misdirection offense. Perfect! We had a small team, a program that enjoyed successful seasons once every 20 or 30 years, and we thought this was the gimmick we needed .............

That coach went 1-19 at our school, and then moved on. Onside kickoffs weren't an issue, because we never scored. And if he had decided to never punt on 4th down? He probably would have gone 0-20.

I'd be more interested seeing NFL teams go for it on every 4th down with 2 yards or less. It does seem NFL coaches have loosened up a hair over the past 50 years, but not too loose. Vince Lombardi would never have gone for it on 4th and one unless it's the league championship and you're down 4 with 16 seconds left.

[rxburgfan]

But at HS level 10-4 ain’t bad. I’ve seen some teams punt and may only gain a few yards. Produce results that keep the school happy and it hard to argue against it .

[greygoose]

124-22 with 3 state titles in 11 years, in his mind the numbers worked and he's making them work for him. Like you said I've seen punts where they were shanked, blocked, went straight up in the air or good return and the net yardage be 2-10 yard in field position. Obviously not the norm but we've all seen it happen and probably more than once a game also.

[Abe Froman]

I have long been a proponent of not getting to wrapped up in statistics at the High School level (college and pros are different animals) when it comes to "going by the book" on what you should do.

Example if it is less than 3 yards and you are on the +45 then we will always go for it on 4th down. In college and pros there is a large amount of statistical proof of what you should probably do in every situation, because at those levels there is parity in teams/players to a degree and the outcome is more "predictable". This is especially true in baseball and to a lesser extent football. At the college and pro level players and teams execute in very repeatable ways so you can start to predict statistically what "usually" should be the outcome scenario.

High School is not predictable so to speak, after all you have 14-15-16 year olds sprinkled in with some 17-18 year olds so there is not as good of a chance to have "predictable" outcomes in punts/kick-offs/4th and short or medium situations. The problem, not really a problem, is that many HS teams rely on what they should do or not do based on watching college and pro teams doing things in similar situations.

This coach apparently has said, my team is going to do things not typical in typical situations and my 15-18 year olds are going to take advantage of the other teams 15-18 year olds by doing unpredictable things, and the more success I have the more my group gains an advantage. I like it. Makes sense solely on the grounds that it is at the HS level, and I don't think it works well at a D1 college or pro level.

Burg uses the onside kick and fake punt on a somewhat regular basis - even when the opponent knows it is coming they often times fail to cover the kick. Mental advantage to us, and mental disadvantage to them. We get better at executing and the opponent is so worried about not executing that they actually don't execute.

[Baldeagle]

it’s worked for him. So keep at it.

I'd be more interested seeing NFL teams go for it on every 4th down with 2 yards or less. It does seem NFL coaches have loosened up a hair over the past 50 years, but not too loose. Vince Lombardi would never have gone for it on 4th and one unless it's the league championship and you're down 4 with 16 seconds left.

This isnt the same NFL Coach Lombardi coached in unfortuately. Todays game is alot more like arena football than people realize. Those arena guys consider onside kicks more freely not because they are all river boat gambler types but because they know a big part of defense is taking away possessions fromt he other team when they can. That thinking has tricked up into the NFL game. Teams with great defenses play it closer to the vest. But the ones who have defenses that are marginal do more with the kicking game.

[countywide35]

good read

[edforshey]

In 1998 Nitro, WV punted 3 times all year with J R House at QB/Punter

State semifinals vs Parkersburg 4th and 25 on their own 5 lined up in Punt formation and threw a 30 yard out for a 1st down