OHSAA FOOTBALL PLAYOFFS ?

Pol pot
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Re: OHSAA FOOTBALL PLAYOFFS ?

Post by Pol pot » Tue Nov 06, 2018 4:50 am

Otto wrote:
Thu Nov 01, 2018 11:51 pm
The creation of D7 was a mistake. I think the system was better off with only D1-D6. Even the state championships got so bloated that they had to add a Thursday game to accomodate all the divisions. As it has been mentioned here and on other sites, it seems that the expansion was not really made to help out the small schools, but rather to take pressure off of the D1 schools. Right now there are a lot of schools who are in D2 who should really be in D1.

It's obvious how this just waters down the divisions. Teams that made the playoffs once every 10 years or had never even made the playoffs before now get in routinely. This is the equivalent of the "give every kid a trophy" mentality that plagues sports these days.
How should a DII school, really be DI, if they do not have the enrollment figures than they are what they are. Before the creation of the 7th Division schools in the biggest division was seeing 1,500 student discrepancies in size. People (primarily you) in SE Ohio only think it’s crazy because this only effects 1 school (Logan). However at the same time folks are constantly complaining about bigger schools in our District being unfair. As for strength of schedule being weighted, it is, very well that’s how 4-6, 5-5 and 6-4 teams make it in every year.



FANOSPORTS
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Re: OHSAA FOOTBALL PLAYOFFS ?

Post by FANOSPORTS » Thu Nov 08, 2018 2:36 am

FANOSPORTS wrote:
Sun Nov 04, 2018 1:11 pm
:( After week #1 only 3 teams are left in SEO East of Rt. 23 and below and not bordering the I-70 and I-71 coorridors (below Bellaire / Shadyside off of I-70 and/or the Marietta area off I-77). Wheelersburg, Trimble and Paint Valley who's just a bit west of Chillicothe. Wheelersburg will carry the flag with the best chance from here on out, Trimble should win this week & Paint Valley will probably go down this week.
Just to piggyback on my original topic here I posted on Sunday before the sites for Rd #2 games were posted or announced , until some of the teams below the "Mason-Dixon" line in our region start winning some first round games a lot of casual SEO fans that like to attend games to support area teams are mostly left out in the cold unless they want to travel many, many miles for a playoff game unlike most other areas of the state where you can usually find a game (sometimes more) every 25-30 miles or so in round #2. Of the 12 games this weekend that involve SEO region teams ( including Burg in SW region 20 and Tri-Valley in D2), 10 games are being played in the I-70 / I-77 corridor (Dover, Hamilton Township, Newark, Zanesville 2 games, Philo, Maysville, New Philadelphia, Watkins Memorial & Coshocton). The only 2 games below the line are Burgs game in Chillicothe and if they hadn't finished as the #1 seed in 20 the OHSAA would probably have them playing somewhere over off I-71 and it just so happens that Trimble & Harvest Prep run along Rt.33 and that was a no brainer for OHSAA you would think to choose Logan for that one but stranger things have happened before. It would be great if they could host some 2nd round week #12 games in 4 or 5 places at Southern Ohio football venues but we'll have to start winning a few 1st rd. games before that can come to fruition.
"ONCE A MARINE, ALWAYS A MARINE"

Otto
Freshman Team
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Re: OHSAA FOOTBALL PLAYOFFS ?

Post by Otto » Thu Nov 08, 2018 9:39 pm

Pol pot wrote:
Tue Nov 06, 2018 4:50 am
Otto wrote:
Thu Nov 01, 2018 11:51 pm
The creation of D7 was a mistake. I think the system was better off with only D1-D6. Even the state championships got so bloated that they had to add a Thursday game to accomodate all the divisions. As it has been mentioned here and on other sites, it seems that the expansion was not really made to help out the small schools, but rather to take pressure off of the D1 schools. Right now there are a lot of schools who are in D2 who should really be in D1.

It's obvious how this just waters down the divisions. Teams that made the playoffs once every 10 years or had never even made the playoffs before now get in routinely. This is the equivalent of the "give every kid a trophy" mentality that plagues sports these days.
How should a DII school, really be DI, if they do not have the enrollment figures than they are what they are. Before the creation of the 7th Division schools in the biggest division was seeing 1,500 student discrepancies in size. People (primarily you) in SE Ohio only think it’s crazy because this only effects 1 school (Logan). However at the same time folks are constantly complaining about bigger schools in our District being unfair. As for strength of schedule being weighted, it is, very well that’s how 4-6, 5-5 and 6-4 teams make it in every year.
It becomes obvious when you see the lopsided success of these D2 schools that used to be in D1. Until last season, every D2 state champion and state runner-up from 2013-2016 was a D1 school prior to 2013. Seems like more than just a coincidence to me. If these schools really "belonged" in D2, they wouldn't drop down a division and immediately dominate like they did. Last year finally broke that trend, with Hoban and Winton Woods in the finals. In fact even Hoban is not technically D2, they are a "superteam" that got moved due to competitive balance.

Another thing that I don't get is some of these teams have been playing big-school football for 100+ years, powerhouses like Massillon and Warren Harding. These teams have been D1 practically forever, have competed and had great success against D1 competition, yet all of a sudden they "needed" to be D2? Something about this seems off to me.

enigmaax
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Re: OHSAA FOOTBALL PLAYOFFS ?

Post by enigmaax » Fri Nov 09, 2018 7:11 am

Otto wrote:
Thu Nov 08, 2018 9:39 pm
Pol pot wrote:
Tue Nov 06, 2018 4:50 am
Otto wrote:
Thu Nov 01, 2018 11:51 pm
The creation of D7 was a mistake. I think the system was better off with only D1-D6. Even the state championships got so bloated that they had to add a Thursday game to accomodate all the divisions. As it has been mentioned here and on other sites, it seems that the expansion was not really made to help out the small schools, but rather to take pressure off of the D1 schools. Right now there are a lot of schools who are in D2 who should really be in D1.

It's obvious how this just waters down the divisions. Teams that made the playoffs once every 10 years or had never even made the playoffs before now get in routinely. This is the equivalent of the "give every kid a trophy" mentality that plagues sports these days.
How should a DII school, really be DI, if they do not have the enrollment figures than they are what they are. Before the creation of the 7th Division schools in the biggest division was seeing 1,500 student discrepancies in size. People (primarily you) in SE Ohio only think it’s crazy because this only effects 1 school (Logan). However at the same time folks are constantly complaining about bigger schools in our District being unfair. As for strength of schedule being weighted, it is, very well that’s how 4-6, 5-5 and 6-4 teams make it in every year.
It becomes obvious when you see the lopsided success of these D2 schools that used to be in D1. Until last season, every D2 state champion and state runner-up from 2013-2016 was a D1 school prior to 2013. Seems like more than just a coincidence to me. If these schools really "belonged" in D2, they wouldn't drop down a division and immediately dominate like they did. Last year finally broke that trend, with Hoban and Winton Woods in the finals. In fact even Hoban is not technically D2, they are a "superteam" that got moved due to competitive balance.

Another thing that I don't get is some of these teams have been playing big-school football for 100+ years, powerhouses like Massillon and Warren Harding. These teams have been D1 practically forever, have competed and had great success against D1 competition, yet all of a sudden they "needed" to be D2? Something about this seems off to me.
Your logic is that if a team can somewhat hold its own when the odds are stacked against it, there is no reason to actually even the odds?

Example - 2016, LaSalle won DII. They were previously DI and that is what you are mad about. Their enrollment number is 431. They beat DI runnerup St. X in the regular season. St. X has over 1100 students. Why should LaSalle always have to compete for a regional title, let alone a state title with a school nearly 3 times bigger simply because they happened to have had some success?

Same with Massillon, who has never won a state title anyway (so not sure why they are the example). Their rival has almost twice the enrollment number (900+ to >600). Your logic is that since they’ve been competitive despite the discrepancy, they should always have to face that obstacle?

Otto
Freshman Team
Posts: 145
Joined: Sun Nov 05, 2017 12:53 am

Re: OHSAA FOOTBALL PLAYOFFS ?

Post by Otto » Fri Nov 09, 2018 9:08 am

enigmaax wrote:
Fri Nov 09, 2018 7:11 am
Otto wrote:
Thu Nov 08, 2018 9:39 pm
Pol pot wrote:
Tue Nov 06, 2018 4:50 am


How should a DII school, really be DI, if they do not have the enrollment figures than they are what they are. Before the creation of the 7th Division schools in the biggest division was seeing 1,500 student discrepancies in size. People (primarily you) in SE Ohio only think it’s crazy because this only effects 1 school (Logan). However at the same time folks are constantly complaining about bigger schools in our District being unfair. As for strength of schedule being weighted, it is, very well that’s how 4-6, 5-5 and 6-4 teams make it in every year.
It becomes obvious when you see the lopsided success of these D2 schools that used to be in D1. Until last season, every D2 state champion and state runner-up from 2013-2016 was a D1 school prior to 2013. Seems like more than just a coincidence to me. If these schools really "belonged" in D2, they wouldn't drop down a division and immediately dominate like they did. Last year finally broke that trend, with Hoban and Winton Woods in the finals. In fact even Hoban is not technically D2, they are a "superteam" that got moved due to competitive balance.

Another thing that I don't get is some of these teams have been playing big-school football for 100+ years, powerhouses like Massillon and Warren Harding. These teams have been D1 practically forever, have competed and had great success against D1 competition, yet all of a sudden they "needed" to be D2? Something about this seems off to me.
Your logic is that if a team can somewhat hold its own when the odds are stacked against it, there is no reason to actually even the odds?

Example - 2016, LaSalle won DII. They were previously DI and that is what you are mad about. Their enrollment number is 431. They beat DI runnerup St. X in the regular season. St. X has over 1100 students. Why should LaSalle always have to compete for a regional title, let alone a state title with a school nearly 3 times bigger simply because they happened to have had some success?

Same with Massillon, who has never won a state title anyway (so not sure why they are the example). Their rival has almost twice the enrollment number (900+ to >600). Your logic is that since they’ve been competitive despite the discrepancy, they should always have to face that obstacle?
There is ALWAYS going to be imbalance in D1, no matter how you slice the pie. The largest school in D1 this year has almost 200 more boys than the next largest school. According to you, that's unfair. I guess that we should just give them their own division then, and let's go ahead and give them the trophy since they are the only team in it. Even now, St. X (and its 1100+ students) has a 500 kid advantage over the smallest D1 schools. It's just how it is in D1.

Since you care about numerical fairness, there are only 72 schools in D1. Every other division has over 100 schools, up to 110 in D6. Is it fair that a school in a smaller division has to compete against a higher number of schools than a D1 school does? If you really wanted fairness, you could divide the schools evenly and have 102 schools in each division. Or get rid of D7, do the same thing, and make it 120 schools in each division.

enigmaax
Varsity
Posts: 607
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Re: OHSAA FOOTBALL PLAYOFFS ?

Post by enigmaax » Fri Nov 09, 2018 9:51 am

Otto wrote:
Fri Nov 09, 2018 9:08 am
enigmaax wrote:
Fri Nov 09, 2018 7:11 am
Otto wrote:
Thu Nov 08, 2018 9:39 pm


It becomes obvious when you see the lopsided success of these D2 schools that used to be in D1. Until last season, every D2 state champion and state runner-up from 2013-2016 was a D1 school prior to 2013. Seems like more than just a coincidence to me. If these schools really "belonged" in D2, they wouldn't drop down a division and immediately dominate like they did. Last year finally broke that trend, with Hoban and Winton Woods in the finals. In fact even Hoban is not technically D2, they are a "superteam" that got moved due to competitive balance.

Another thing that I don't get is some of these teams have been playing big-school football for 100+ years, powerhouses like Massillon and Warren Harding. These teams have been D1 practically forever, have competed and had great success against D1 competition, yet all of a sudden they "needed" to be D2? Something about this seems off to me.
Your logic is that if a team can somewhat hold its own when the odds are stacked against it, there is no reason to actually even the odds?

Example - 2016, LaSalle won DII. They were previously DI and that is what you are mad about. Their enrollment number is 431. They beat DI runnerup St. X in the regular season. St. X has over 1100 students. Why should LaSalle always have to compete for a regional title, let alone a state title with a school nearly 3 times bigger simply because they happened to have had some success?

Same with Massillon, who has never won a state title anyway (so not sure why they are the example). Their rival has almost twice the enrollment number (900+ to >600). Your logic is that since they’ve been competitive despite the discrepancy, they should always have to face that obstacle?
There is ALWAYS going to be imbalance in D1, no matter how you slice the pie. The largest school in D1 this year has almost 200 more boys than the next largest school. According to you, that's unfair. I guess that we should just give them their own division then, and let's go ahead and give them the trophy since they are the only team in it. Even now, St. X (and its 1100+ students) has a 500 kid advantage over the smallest D1 schools. It's just how it is in D1.

Since you care about numerical fairness, there are only 72 schools in D1. Every other division has over 100 schools, up to 110 in D6. Is it fair that a school in a smaller division has to compete against a higher number of schools than a D1 school does? If you really wanted fairness, you could divide the schools evenly and have 102 schools in each division. Or get rid of D7, do the same thing, and make it 120 schools in each division.
Obviously, there is no perfect solution because everything isn’t equal.

The difference is that you are complaining about a move that made the playing field more equitable for a large number of schools (and provided more opportunities to a large number of student-athletes) while I am saying that trying to level the playing field and provide opportunities is a good thing. You want to punish schools/teams who have success in spite of the unbalanced field, while I think it is fine to make the field as balanced as possible given the obstacles/gaps. DII still has almost a 50% gap between its lowest and highest enrollments, but that is better to the lower end schools than what was a 200% gap. But you choose to focus on the higher end who went from being overwhelmingly disadvantaged to being slighlty advantaged.

Nothing else that you said is relevant as fair as number equity.

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