Kirtland vs Versailles

[RBH23]

Years ago, Ironton had a lot more residents than they do now. Plus, there was a lot of industrial jobs to boot. Most guys could graduate from high school and then either go to work at Armco( AK steel) Ironton Iron, Cement Salvy, Ashland Oil( Marathon Petroleum) or Allied Signal. Only one of those places is currently open, Marathon Petroleum.

My dad worked at Armco. When he hired in, they employed over 3,000 people. When he retired, they cut the staff to around 900. Ironton at one time also had 7 elementary schools. Lombard, West Ironton, Whitwell, Kingsbury, Lawrence Street, Central, and Campbell. Now the elementary and middle schools are in the same building on Delaware Street.

You just described most of Ohio.

[RollCoal]

Years ago, Ironton had a lot more residents than they do now. Plus, there was a lot of industrial jobs to boot. Most guys could graduate from high school and then either go to work at Armco( AK steel) Ironton Iron, Cement Salvy, Ashland Oil( Marathon Petroleum) or Allied Signal. Only one of those places is currently open, Marathon Petroleum.

My dad worked at Armco. When he hired in, they employed over 3,000 people. When he retired, they cut the staff to around 900. Ironton at one time also had 7 elementary schools. Lombard, West Ironton, Whitwell, Kingsbury, Lawrence Street, Central, and Campbell. Now the elementary and middle schools are in the same building on Delaware Street.

You just described most of Ohio.

Unfortunately it’s true. I’m still proud to be a boy from Southern Ohio. Lived in Kentucky a couple years and would never live there again. Glad to be back home!

[efarns]

Great example!

Trotwood is in Montgomery County . . . The median income for a household in the county was $40,156, and the median income for a family was $50,071. Males had a median income of $38,710 versus $27,297 for females. The per capita income for the county was $21,743. About 8.30% of families and 11.30% of the population were below the poverty line, including 15.60% of those under age 18 and 8.20% of those age 65 or over.

Meigs County has 3 different school districts . . . As of the census[ of 2000, there were 23,072 people, 9,234 households, and 6,574 families living in the county. The population density was 54 people per square mile (21 people/km2). The median income for a household in the county was $27,287, and the median income for a family was $33,071. The per capita income for the county was $18,003.

If you have a good program and good coaching, it's much easier to retain and attract athletes if there is a solid population and economic base near your school district. You're talking about "won a state title," and I'm talking about teams like Kirtland that do this every year. I'm going to be done with this conversation now.

[RBH23]

Great example!

Trotwood is in Montgomery County . . . The median income for a household in the county was $40,156, and the median income for a family was $50,071. Males had a median income of $38,710 versus $27,297 for females. The per capita income for the county was $21,743. About 8.30% of families and 11.30% of the population were below the poverty line, including 15.60% of those under age 18 and 8.20% of those age 65 or over.

Meigs County has 3 different school districts . . . As of the census[ of 2000, there were 23,072 people, 9,234 households, and 6,574 families living in the county. The population density was 54 people per square mile (21 people/km2). The median income for a household in the county was $27,287, and the median income for a family was $33,071. The per capita income for the county was $18,003.

If you have a good program and good coaching, it's much easier to retain and attract athletes if there is a solid population and economic base near your school district. You're talking about "won a state title," and I'm talking about teams like Kirtland that do this every year. I'm going to be done with this conversation now.

First, those numbers are based on the 2010 census. Montgomery county has declined since then. Second, Montgomery county includes a number of towns some better off than others. For example, Oakwood is in Montgomery county. Median household income there is around $100k; can’t bundle Montgomery county. Btw, want to guess who’s better at football between Oakwood and Trotwood?


During this time, Trotwood has won three state titles (2011, 2017, 2019). They’ve also been runner up 5 times! So from 2010 to now, Trotwood has 3 state titles and 5 runner ups while the community has sunk deeper into poverty. Putting up results similar to Kirtland but against D2-D3 teams!!

Key to their success? They have a great coach. Was the OC until 2014 when he got promoted to head coach. Again, as I stated, high school football comes down to head coach and some decent talent. Income and poverty are not the main factors to predict success.

Btw, all the programs I have mentioned have won more than one title; these are not one hit wonder programs. Closest to ML’s success is Pikeville, Kentucky with poverty close to 30%.

[efarns]

Wealth does correlate to winning. Obviously, the athletes do need coaching too.

https://usatodayhss.com/2015/how-does-w ... ool-sports

[RBH23]

Wealth does correlate to winning. Obviously, the athletes do need coaching too.

https://usatodayhss.com/2015/how-does-w ... ool-sports

Did you even read the article? No mention of football or basketball. Focus is on sports like Lacrosse, golf, tennis, volleyball, soccer, baseball, and softball. Poor schools may not even have such programs which distorts the data. Example: Ironton has never won in boy’s soccer. Is that because the income is too low for them to be competitive? No. They haven’t had a team!! How about Burg’s bowling team? No championships for them either.

Interesting softball is on this one since Burg produces one of the top programs in the state despite size, and has won the little league World Series in softball. Hmmm…. Maybe coaching has played a role????

[efarns]

https://stories.usatodaynetwork.com/sch ... all%20team.

How dense do you want to be?

[RBH23]

https://stories.usatodaynetwork.com/sch ... all%20team.

How dense do you want to be?

Again, did you even read the article? They cherry picked the data with focus only on two of the six divisions within Texas. Why? Probably because if you look at all the divisions within Texas, the conclusion would be different. Did you even notice that they only included 5A and 6A schools in their analysis? Did you even think why they do that?

Same with the NC article. Did you notice that they did not mention football and basketball? Did you wonder why?

That said, I have given ample examples showing how coaching was the #1 reason for high school football team success regardless of poverty rates and income. I have proven your theory wrong.

[thebarlowbandit]

Coaching is clearly important. Nobody said it wasn't.

Here is a current economic map. Steubenville, for example, has never been economically distressed and has even been a boom town at one time. Jefferson county is not what it once was, but it is not an economically distressed county and is within easy commuting distance to economically competitive Pittsburgh. Ironton, for another example, won its state titles years ago, and I'm guessing Ashland was booming at the time? Did the coaches get dumb?

https://www.arc.gov/map/county-economic ... a-fy-2006/

20% of Steubenville’s population lives below the poverty line. That is not good as you claim!

The other schools and the areas they are in are bad as well even if they are in driving distance from jobs. Seriously, have you been Trotwood, Ohio? Poverty rate is 25%. Newark poverty rate is around 17%. Youngstown poverty rate is 35%. For comparison, Burg’s poverty rate is around 13% (slightly worse than national average). Ironton is at 25%.

Btw, Ashland won a state title in 2020! Did Ashland have an economic boom that year? Also, Pikeville Kentucky, with a poverty rate of 27%, just won their fourth state title in the past five years. Eight state titles in total!!

https://www.wsaz.com/2020/12/19/ashland ... utType=amp

https://www.wymt.com/2023/12/01/pikevil ... utType=amp

Stuebenville also plays 9 home games, and brings in schools you've never heard of and sells them as state powers. Their football team has not been what it once was in the past. I will give you that a coach is very important, but if you don't believe the family situation is as equally or more important, well then, not sure you can be helped here.

[RBH23]

Coaching is clearly important. Nobody said it wasn't.

Here is a current economic map. Steubenville, for example, has never been economically distressed and has even been a boom town at one time. Jefferson county is not what it once was, but it is not an economically distressed county and is within easy commuting distance to economically competitive Pittsburgh. Ironton, for another example, won its state titles years ago, and I'm guessing Ashland was booming at the time? Did the coaches get dumb?

https://www.arc.gov/map/county-economic ... a-fy-2006/

20% of Steubenville’s population lives below the poverty line. That is not good as you claim!

The other schools and the areas they are in are bad as well even if they are in driving distance from jobs. Seriously, have you been Trotwood, Ohio? Poverty rate is 25%. Newark poverty rate is around 17%. Youngstown poverty rate is 35%. For comparison, Burg’s poverty rate is around 13% (slightly worse than national average). Ironton is at 25%.

Btw, Ashland won a state title in 2020! Did Ashland have an economic boom that year? Also, Pikeville Kentucky, with a poverty rate of 27%, just won their fourth state title in the past five years. Eight state titles in total!!

https://www.wsaz.com/2020/12/19/ashland ... utType=amp

https://www.wymt.com/2023/12/01/pikevil ... utType=amp

Stuebenville also plays 9 home games, and brings in schools you've never heard of and sells them as state powers. Their football team has not been what it once was in the past. I will give you that a coach is very important, but if you don't believe the family situation is as equally or more important, well then, not sure you can be helped here.

Okay, you guys keep moving the criteria around. First it was income and jobs, now it’s family situation (however you define that).

What I am saying is that there are many factors but coaching is #1 followed by talent. And I have given many examples to prove this.

Hilliard Davidson, Marion Local, and Kirtland are three prime examples. All three have always had good income, jobs, and stable families. But all three programs have only had football success with ONE coach!!! Once Brian White retired, Hilliard’s program went to . The community still had money, jobs, high income, strong families, etc. But they lost their coach and the replacements were simply not as good.

Kirtland had ZERO playoff wins before Tiger. ZERO. Plug in a good coach with no other changes? Program is a monster success.

Marion Local had zero state titles before their current coach. Now they have the most titles in history!!!

Wheelersburg football was awful before 1972. Once Ed Miller took over, the football program began winning overnight. No other changes to the area, community, etc.

As for talent being the #2 factor, this is very easy to prove: look at the NFL players. How many of them are talented? All obviously are. How many have been on winning high school teams? The vast majority; mainly because of their own talent. How many came from two parent homes with high incomes and job security? Not many.

Schools that demonstrate this: CAPE, HP, Winton Woods, Trotwood Madison, Toledo Central Catholic…

I could go on and on and on…. This is very easy to see and understand! Coaching is the #1 factor for high school football success, followed by talent. Strong community, income, etc are just icing on the cake.


Btw, what does Steubenville’s regular season schedule have to do with them winning state titles? Does Steubenville get to play state championships at home as well? Do they get to choose their opponent for the title game? No idea where you are going with that statement.

[big medicine]

Kirtland is coaching, coaching, coaching. No playoff wins before Tiger took over.

Coaching + Culture. Nothing in life is ever just one absolute. Everything is nuanced. It's a combo of both coaching & culture.

Coaches create the culture. If not, Kirtland and ML would have won titles before their current coaches took control.

Marion Local has had the culture. Back in the early 70's Coach Mike McKernan had some serious good teams, but in those days very few teams qualified for the playoffs. I'm sure a couple of those teams might have made some noise if they could have gotten in.

The next coach( 4 years) went on to be a long time personnel man for the Cincinnati Bengals, seem to remember mostly winning records.

The next coach was there a long time (19 years), a good guy, nice guy, but not real imaginative with his formations and play calling. Again had enough players to result in winning seasons but generally thought to not be maximizing their potential.

Next coach was a short timer.( 2 years)

Then came Goodwin, the son of a long time high school head coach (who also joined his staff) with a very mathematical/analytical mind. Entering a league that had won 7 state titles in the past 10 years. Playing that kind of weekly competition, any weakness in your game planning was quickly pointed out to you. Reached the state semifinals his first year ( losing to league mate and eventual state champion Delphos Saint Johns). Winning his first gold trophy his second year as coach.

I suspect it was the combination of culture meeting up with outstanding coaching, further honed by rigorous weekly competition, and the extra practices afforded by extending their season into early December most years that has built this program into what it has become. That and expanding the number of playoff qualifiers over the years helped some too.

[efarns]

I never said coaching wasn't important. I only said that demographics matter. Income correlates to wins. Kirtland is an example of a place that has both great coaching and an ideal community.

https://www.ctinsider.com/sports/articl ... 442595.php

[RBH23]

I never said coaching wasn't important. I only said that demographics matter. Income correlates to wins. Kirtland is an example of a place that has both great coaching and an ideal community.

https://www.ctinsider.com/sports/articl ... 442595.php

This article is about ALL sports and focuses on sports where wealthy schools do dominate: volleyball, soccer, lacrosse, field hockey, golf, etc. Football and basketball don’t follow those other sports.

What you have been claiming is that income and jobs are the most important factors to football success. I said coaching is the most important factor.

Kirtland and Marion Local prove what I am claiming, as do many other schools that I have also listed.

[RBH23]

Coaching + Culture. Nothing in life is ever just one absolute. Everything is nuanced. It's a combo of both coaching & culture.

Coaches create the culture. If not, Kirtland and ML would have won titles before their current coaches took control.

Marion Local has had the culture. Back in the early 70's Coach Mike McKernan had some serious good teams, but in those days very few teams qualified for the playoffs. I'm sure a couple of those teams might have made some noise if they could have gotten in.

The next coach( 4 years) went on to be a long time personnel man for the Cincinnati Bengals, seem to remember mostly winning records.

The next coach was there a long time (19 years), a good guy, nice guy, but not real imaginative with his formations and play calling. Again had enough players to result in winning seasons but generally thought to not be maximizing their potential.

Next coach was a short timer.( 2 years)

Then came Goodwin, the son of a long time high school head coach (who also joined his staff) with a very mathematical/analytical mind. Entering a league that had won 7 state titles in the past 10 years. Playing that kind of weekly competition, any weakness in your game planning was quickly pointed out to you. Reached the state semifinals his first year ( losing to league mate and eventual state champion Delphos Saint Johns). Winning his first gold trophy his second year as coach.

I suspect it was the combination of culture meeting up with outstanding coaching, further honed by rigorous weekly competition, and the extra practices afforded by extending their season into early December most years that has built this program into what it has become. That and expanding the number of playoff qualifiers over the years helped some too.

If Goodwin took over Ironton, you would see a dramatic change in their program. Same if Tiger took the IHS head coaching job.

These coaches know how to create a dominate program.

[efarns]

I never said coaching wasn't important. I only said that demographics matter. Income correlates to wins. Kirtland is an example of a place that has both great coaching and an ideal community.

https://www.ctinsider.com/sports/articl ... 442595.php

This article is about ALL sports and focuses on sports where wealthy schools do dominate: volleyball, soccer, lacrosse, field hockey, golf, etc. Football and basketball don’t follow those other sports.

What you have been claiming is that income and jobs are the most important factors to football success. I said coaching is the most important factor.

Kirtland and Marion Local prove what I am claiming, as do many other schools that I have also listed.

Nope. I never said they were the most important.

[RBH23]

I never said coaching wasn't important. I only said that demographics matter. Income correlates to wins. Kirtland is an example of a place that has both great coaching and an ideal community.

https://www.ctinsider.com/sports/articl ... 442595.php

This article is about ALL sports and focuses on sports where wealthy schools do dominate: volleyball, soccer, lacrosse, field hockey, golf, etc. Football and basketball don’t follow those other sports.

What you have been claiming is that income and jobs are the most important factors to football success. I said coaching is the most important factor.

Kirtland and Marion Local prove what I am claiming, as do many other schools that I have also listed.

Nope. I never said they were the most important.

Sorry, you insinuated economics is more important than coaching by stating “show me a good coach that succeeded in an economically depressed area.”

[efarns]

J.O.B.S., and income the footprint of that conference all ranks in the top 3rd in Ohio in personal income, household income, and low unemployment.

If it was just about income and jobs, Indian Hill would dominate Ohio football.

It is not JUST about income and jobs. But the demographics of your district do matter.

[RBH23]

Indian Hills has tons of schools to compete and take their better athletes in the private schools. You don't have that up in MAC land, and open enrollement is not a thing. And if you don't think income, jobs and families don't make a difference, I don't know what you think does make a difference.

Indian Hill doesn’t have much competition when it comes to income, a category you claimed was critical. Based on that, they shouldn’t be concerned about other schools stealing their talent and coaches.

Ironton wouldn’t have beaten Sycamore a few years ago if income was such a large factor.

So what makes a difference? Talent is important but the answer is COACHING!!!!!!!!

Great example of this is Hilliard Davidson. A D1 program that, under coach Brian White, won two state and five regional titles. Once he retired, the football team went to . No longer a D1 power.

Did Hilliard’s jobs, income, demographics, etc change to cause this? No. Hilliard is still a well off, family oriented area. Has the same demographics, income, etc as before. Only thing that changed was the coach.

Need another example? Take Kirtland. Always has been a family-oriented area with good schools, jobs, income, etc. But pre-Tiger, they had zero playoff wins. Once Tiger took over as coach, they became a state power.

Still need another example? This time, I’ll use Marion Local. Again, a strong middle class area with good paying blue collar jobs and strong family values. Has been that way for a long time. But before their current coach took over the program, ML had ZERO state titles. ZERO!! All of their titles and success have come under ONE coach!!!

Finally, take Wheelersburg football. In 1971, Burg lost 5 games that season. Ed Miller took over starting the 1972 season. From 1972-1979, Wheelersburg lost a total of 5 games with zero losses in five of those seasons! Did Burg’s income level dramatically change in one year? Did Burg’s demographics dramatically change? No. Only thing that changed was the coach.

You are citing coaches who coached in desirable areas who had success. Obviously, coaching is a key element. But show me a school with a state title dynasty in an economically depressed county. I'll wait.

You clearly believe economics trumps coaching. Most of your posts on this thread have been around trying to prove this, unfortunately real-life does not agree with you. Coaching is not just a key element, it is the most important element.

[TigerBob]

Perhaps the great coaches who are in poorer areas with worse community support cannot shine through? The fact that they cannot be found doesn’t mean they don’t exist. And because of this, great coaches find their way to great jobs, which are typically those in richer areas with more community support.

[RBH23]

Perhaps the great coaches who are in poorer areas with worse community support cannot shine through? The fact that they cannot be found doesn’t mean they don’t exist. And because of this, great coaches find their way to great jobs, which are typically those in richer areas with more community support.

Interesting theory…

Just considering some of the coaches I have mentioned, they made the team great that they inherited; didn’t inherit a great job.

Take Ed Miller. He was very successful at Portsmouth ND before taking over at Burg. However, Burg would not have been considered a great job when he took over. It was simply home for him, and he turned the program into what it has become.

Coach Lutz was successful as well before taking over IHS. Then he took Ironton to a state powerhouse. I don’t know how good IHS was before Lutz, so maybe he did take this job considering it a great opportunity.

Coach of Marion Local has only coached at Marion Local. He made ML the power that it currently is. No coach before him had won a state title.

LaVerde didn’t move to Kirtland because it was considered a desirable program. He moved there because his wife wanted to relocate back to northeastern Ohio. LaVerde has made Kirtland a great program because it was not before he arrived.


Interesting fact about Goodwin and LaVerde: Goodwin was a math teacher before becoming principle. LaVerde was an actuary before he switched careers and became a math teacher. Maybe being a math guru is the key to truly dominating?