REFS????

clevelandbrowns#1
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Re: REFS????

Post by clevelandbrowns#1 » Thu Jan 20, 2011 5:40 pm

athens 78- Getting on here and saying names with negativity will get you booted from this forum. The official you mentioned in your last post has done this job for approx. 40 yrs., has officiated @ every level of basketball and has been a very good official. He will be the first to admit that he isn't as quick as he used to be, but his judgement and management of the game is still good. He has had good partners for a long time and those of us who have worked with him will still do it as long as he wants to officiate. Give the man some praise for what he has done for basketball in our area. Thanks, Mr. Hardy for the job you have done and allowing me to officiate with you a couple dozen times!!!



blockcharge
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Re: REFS????

Post by blockcharge » Thu Jan 20, 2011 6:03 pm

Here here cb1 i concur!



number1fan
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Re: REFS????

Post by number1fan » Thu Jan 20, 2011 6:58 pm

Just my opinion here so please do not bash me. I don't even pretend to know everything about officiating and have no desire to try.
But I think sometimes what fans and perhaps young athletes get upset about is maybe the lack of consistency.
What I mean by this from years of observing is there may be one game that turns into an all out brawl where hardly anything is called either way. That is fine but the next game you may have refs that blow the whistle with every touch. Some of the players figure this out early and can adjust but some have a harder time and get frustrated. I don't think it's fair to put that all on the kids or blame it on their talent or skill set. They are simply confused as to why they can play so physical in one game and in the next game they may have 3 fouls in the first quarter when they feel like they are playing the same way. My daughter is still at the Junior High level and plays ball mostly year round all over the place in AAU so she has figured this out but for some of the other kids they are still learning the process.
Some refs will call a jump ball instantly without giving the other player a chance to rip it out and others will let them wrestle it out in a pile on the floor forever before they call it. I realize there is a lot of it that cannot be nailed down to an exact science and there will always be variations but you would think it could be a little more consistent so maybe they could figure it out.

With that being said I have the utmost respect for refs and have tried to teach my daughter the same thing. I feel bad for them sometimes when they are getting yelled at by both sides. And yes, some fans will yell regardless. In the hundreds of games I have watched of my daughter's I can only think of a very few that I think were called poorly. But they were pretty obvious. But I make sure to point out to my daughter when she complains about a call after a game that she also got away with a few too and the refs can't see everything. So once again, just another viewpoint.



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qualified101
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Re: REFS????

Post by qualified101 » Thu Jan 20, 2011 7:45 pm

ManitouDan wrote:Could we please give it a break on the technical terms for a player reaching over the shoulder/back in an attempt to get a rebound. (wait there is no such thing as a rebound --it's a missed shot.) OF FREAKIN COURSE IT"S COMMONLY CALLED " OVER THE BACK" It's been called that since peach baskets were used on the sides of barns. To attempt to slander or discredit a fan or coach when lobbying for that call because techinally "the good officials handbook " says it doesn't exist is shallow and stupid. get over your self

sorry, it doesnt exist. it hasnt for over a decade. get over yourself please. i guess we(officials) are shallow and stupid, wait we hear that all the time. take the course, learn the terms, then talk intelligently on the subject. until then, let the grown ups talk.



ManitouDan
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Re: REFS????

Post by ManitouDan » Thu Jan 20, 2011 10:08 pm

Ok we get ,evidently officials think anyone who uses the common terminology of " Over the back" is an uninformed immature person unworthy of being heard. Cmon It's a widely used ,commonly accepted, phrase for a player reaching over another players shoulder trying to get a rebound. I get it that when you prance over (i'd bet you do) to the scorekeeper the technical term is a push . whatever , everyone not wearing black and white strips knows that when that happens the player with outside position went " over the back' of the player with inside position. He did'nt push at all, he reached over illegally to gain an advantage . I Know "the book" that they teach officials say it's a push, I don't care !



efarns
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Re: REFS????

Post by efarns » Thu Jan 20, 2011 11:14 pm

I have a question that may as well fit in this topic: In a recent game, a technical foul was given to a girl for wearing an earring (it had been covered with a band-aid which came off during the game). Apparently, after studying the rulebook afterwards, we learned that wearing jewelry isn't a violation of the rules, so maybe there will be a protest filed about the call, which directly affected the game's outcome. If it turns out that the call was bogus, what, if anything, might happen?

In general - I have been pressed into ref duty in some peewee games and from that little experience can tell you it's a lot harder than it looks. Refs are not infallible, but they get talked about waaaaay too much.



blockcharge
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Re: REFS????

Post by blockcharge » Fri Jan 21, 2011 1:54 am

Manitou I don't care what you call it but you keep leaving out the contact part. It is not a foul to reach "Over" someone to gain an advantage. It is a foul to reach over and make CONTACT to gain an advantage.

Efarns it is illegal to wear jewerly, in fact the only type of jewerly allowed is a medical alert bracelet/necklace and the officials wedding bands.
One of the reasons we come out early is to check the players for illegal items and this should have been caught before the game started. If Coach was asked are your players legally equipped and said yes the Technical would be on him/her. Also the OHSAA will not change game results due to a protest. Thanks for putting the whistle on in some peewee games I'm sure you did ok. Its not a science but more of an art with rules.



md2020
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Re: REFS????

Post by md2020 » Fri Jan 21, 2011 8:22 am

Auburn game on TV last night: The announcer says :that over the back: foul. Well obviously he has not got the word and I will guarantee you that this Saturday, down on the river somewhere, grandpa's not going to yell out "thats a push" It is what it is. Your rule book is in the mail.



athens78
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Re: REFS????

Post by athens78 » Fri Jan 21, 2011 9:24 am

Bottom line is that fans are fans and refs are refs and the debate will continue forever.



footballfanatic1
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Re: REFS????

Post by footballfanatic1 » Fri Jan 21, 2011 9:28 am

PART OF THE GAME........



ManitouDan
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Re: REFS????

Post by ManitouDan » Fri Jan 21, 2011 9:43 am

sorry I wasn't more clear -- I did mean reach over the shoulder AND make contact to gain advantage.

The whole argument seems to about technical terminology , not what is actually a foul or not .

I mean when a defensive player is overly aggressive out front on the offensive PG and the coach hollers " Cmon ref he is ridin' him like a horse" no ref in there right mind is going to correct the coach and state " Coach there is no ridin foul --It's called a push " !

Or similiarly when a player "palms" the ball or carries it , and a coach says he is palming the ball ( old school I know lol) no ref needs to correct the coach and get all high horse and declare " There is no palming , that was changed in the OHSAA rule book in Oct 1998 Sect 101 paragraph A --

Parts of this thread feel like there is a fair amount of condescension towards anyone who might use a slang term instead of the OHSAA rule book description. to each his own. MD



blockcharge
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Re: REFS????

Post by blockcharge » Fri Jan 21, 2011 11:00 am

Manitou - what i have said all along is i don't care what you call it there has to be contact to have a foul. You would be suprised at some of the rules that are misunderstood. Verticallity is one, A lot of times the players will hold their arms out at an angle and when the shooter jumps up for a shot let their arms go up with the shooter. If contact is made while the arms are out it is a foul. But we hear everyone yell they were straight up. On the charge call we hear his feet weren't set, they don't have to be, the defender just has to be in a legal guarding position.
Three seconds is another, when are we counting and when we are not. Some know, not all, when the player starts a move to the basket the 3 sec. count is stopped. So pay your money, yell as much as you want, yell what you want, but above all enjoy the game and more important, enjoy the young people playing the game.



Esully63
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Re: REFS????

Post by Esully63 » Fri Jan 21, 2011 11:38 am

I get tired of hearing how no one knows the rules except the officials and they are never wrong! Im looking for consistancy, you keep saying contact and I see a lot of fouls called in the offensive zone especially when going for a basket that called for the least amount of contact. Yet alot of teams full court press leaning on the ball handeler, or a girl is dribbling down the right side of the court..dribbling with her right hand and a defender on her left side (not ahead of her where a clean steal could be made) reaches or shoots for the steal from the ball handlers left side all the way over to the right side while running down the court. Id say it would be awful close to impossible to not make contact.
Then I hear contact which causes a distinct advantage. If you ask me denying the offensive zone is a pretty big advantage.
You official can go ahead and keep interpreting the rules to make yourselves look better and the fans will continue to harras you.
Look all I am asking for is consistancy. Call fifty fouls a night for blocking or hacking or body when there are shots going up, but dont let all the contact go prior to entering the offensive zone. There is a proper way to run a full court press but I seldom see it and I seldom see the officials force the game to stay clean on that end of the floor. Running along side your opponent bumping leaning and reaching to the otherside of your opponent is not the proper way to run a full court press, unless of course your in southern ohio where the officials tolerate it.



Esully63
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Re: REFS????

Post by Esully63 » Fri Jan 21, 2011 11:48 am

ManitouDan wrote:sorry I wasn't more clear -- I did mean reach over the shoulder AND make contact to gain advantage.

The whole argument seems to about technical terminology , not what is actually a foul or not .

I mean when a defensive player is overly aggressive out front on the offensive PG and the coach hollers " Cmon ref he is ridin' him like a horse" no ref in there right mind is going to correct the coach and state " Coach there is no ridin foul --It's called a push " !

Or similiarly when a player "palms" the ball or carries it , and a coach says he is palming the ball ( old school I know lol) no ref needs to correct the coach and get all high horse and declare " There is no palming , that was changed in the OHSAA rule book in Oct 1998 Sect 101 paragraph A --

Parts of this thread feel like there is a fair amount of condescension towards anyone who might use a slang term instead of the OHSAA rule book description. to each his own. MD
Hey Dan I think what we are reading is similar to "legal talk" or "Double Talk". It's an art practiced by lawyers and politicians to redirect the focus of a conversation to avoid having to concider the validity of what is being said or to avoid having to admit wrong doing. Short and sweet they avoid the issue by picking on terminology.



blockcharge
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Re: REFS????

Post by blockcharge » Fri Jan 21, 2011 1:34 pm

E - I referee because i want to and i enjoy and yes i know the rules better than you do and thats part of being an official. So again go ahead go to the games and yell, have fun and gripe about the refs if you want. But if you perceive a problem and are not part of the solution then you are part of the problem. People yelling and screaming at the games really does not bother or influence me, in fact i like it when everyone is involved in the game and the gym is roaring just a better atomosphere



Esully63
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Re: REFS????

Post by Esully63 » Fri Jan 21, 2011 1:42 pm

blockcharge wrote:E - I referee because i want to and i enjoy and yes i know the rules better than you do and thats part of being an official. So again go ahead go to the games and yell, have fun and gripe about the refs if you want. But if you perceive a problem and are not part of the solution then you are part of the problem. People yelling and screaming at the games really does not bother or influence me, in fact i like it when everyone is involved in the game and the gym is roaring just a better atomosphere
Can we get beyond the yelling and screaming at the games and get to an explanation of why we allow for so much contact on the full court press, when it is clearly just poor defennse. Yet call fouls on shots if shirts rub. If there is a problem and you fail to admit or even concider there is a problem, then you too are part of the problem.



ManitouDan
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Re: REFS????

Post by ManitouDan » Fri Jan 21, 2011 2:10 pm

just a couple comments to wrap this up for me : I didn't mean to insinuate contact was NOT needed to draw an "over the back " call.

blockcharge is right about the vertacality of a players arms, so often the Def player doesn't realize they are tilting their arms as the shot goes up and making contact drawing the foul ( slow mo replay really shows that the arms are usually going forward)

And Esully is sure right about ball pressure applied to a dribbler in the full court press. A bunch of contact/ hand checking is tolerated. That was thing that drew my praise to the crew the Munn guy was calling games with. They did'nt allow the team pressing to beat/bang in order to knock a ball loose.

lastly it's difficult to call a girls game. 1/2 of them don't understand positioning/ timing / or the letter of the rules either. how many girls can stand still and draw a charge ? no official can cover up how poor some of these games are being played. peace out MD



Esully63
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Re: REFS????

Post by Esully63 » Fri Jan 21, 2011 2:45 pm

ManitouDan wrote:just a couple comments to wrap this up for me : I didn't mean to insinuate contact was NOT needed to draw an "over the back " call.

blockcharge is right about the vertacality of a players arms, so often the Def player doesn't realize they are tilting their arms as the shot goes up and making contact drawing the foul ( slow mo replay really shows that the arms are usually going forward)

And Esully is sure right about ball pressure applied to a dribbler in the full court press. A bunch of contact/ hand checking is tolerated. That was thing that drew my praise to the crew the Munn guy was calling games with. They did'nt allow the team pressing to beat/bang in order to knock a ball loose.

lastly it's difficult to call a girls game. 1/2 of them don't understand positioning/ timing / or the letter of the rules either. how many girls can stand still and draw a charge ? no official can cover up how poor some of these games are being played. peace out MD
Thanks Dan! At least I don't feel like I'm nuts. The thing that bothers me the most about allowing this is seeing the ball go back the other way all night and the point differentials going way up. Not only does it allow the offenders another offensive stand it takes an offensive stand away from the other team. Every time this is allowed it is theoretically a 4 point swing. Im all for defense and pressure but it should be done right, using your feet and speed, not pure aggression and reach, and I'm not going to buy "If we called it all night they would all foul out,or we would be there all night". I do believe our coaches and players would adjust to the calls and we would have better game because of it. As I said "nothing wrong with pressure, excellent defense is seldom seen these days but I really marvel when I see a good defensive player working hard. You may not see it in the stats, and the player may not get much recognition but believe me the team owes much of thier success to that player.



Ironman92
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Re: REFS????

Post by Ironman92 » Fri Jan 21, 2011 2:49 pm

yep



footballfanatic1
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Re: REFS????

Post by footballfanatic1 » Fri Jan 21, 2011 3:06 pm

what no recognition for playing sound "D".... COME ON....LOL



ManitouDan
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Re: REFS????

Post by ManitouDan » Fri Jan 21, 2011 3:15 pm

sound aggressive D , yes . Girls with little knowledge of the way the game should be played and turning it into a rugby match -- no. I've said this before , I'll say it again. Any team worth it's salt will adjust it's aggressiveness to the level being called. You start out in the 1st quarter and within 4-5 minutes the girls know exactly what to expect, A) I can mug someone B) I can't near anyone or C) it's gonna be called about right

The poor crew (did'nt cheat anyone , just poor) we had at home last month allowed so much contact by the 3rd quarter my daughter was assualting opposing players. She said " I knew I could by with it" in the car on the way home. Thats just not right.



blockcharge
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Re: REFS????

Post by blockcharge » Fri Jan 21, 2011 5:12 pm

esully - If its a foul in the front court its a foul in the back court and since i only see the games i work, with the people i work with i guess i don't know what you are talking about. I told a group of young men the other night "I don't care if we shoot a hundred free throws, we are still gonna call the fouls."



West Side Pride
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Re: REFS????

Post by West Side Pride » Fri Jan 21, 2011 7:08 pm

If you have ever taken a team to Dayton, down south in Kentucky, Florence, even Maysville to play AAU and seen the officals, trust
me you won't complain about local high school girls referees. I have always liked the fact that other places away from here "let them play".
I also have always told my girls that basketball is a contact sport, use it to your advantage over a more timid team. Luckily I always
had a hard nosed group. (or maybe us coaches did that). But nevertheless, I hate fans around here screaming foul when their
player is just touched.



clevelandbrowns#1
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Re: REFS????

Post by clevelandbrowns#1 » Sat Jan 22, 2011 9:22 am

West Side Pride,
You are correct, go to Dayton, Cincinatti, Columbus and it WAS a more physical game than what we have had in our Southern Ohio Leagues. I truly feel that our basketball here in Southern Ohio has taken on a more physical game!! No doubt about it. Is the officials to blame?? Is the coaches to blame?? Is the OHSAA to blame?? Is the players to blame?? I think it is a little bit of all. Let me explain, We have always been told by coaches that come tournament time it seems we call a more physical game, we let more bumping go!! To a certain point I agree, but remember the farther a team advances in tournament play usually the better they are. The better the team the more fluency, the less grabbing, the better defense, the better shooting, the better ball handling, the overall better the players. If you call a very tight game and call the so called "hand check",-when a defensive person puts his/her hand on the offensive player, you will here it from the coach, fans and everyone else who is there from the team you just called it on. A "hand check" should be called when the defensive player gains an advantage over the offensive player by directing them or changing the direction the offensive player was trying to go. The game of basketball does have CONTACT, it is a CONTACT sport. Believe it or not the coaches want their players to play through the bumping, touching, breathing on, etc... Ask them see what the answer is. The thing about officiating the game of basketball is CONSISTENCY. Did you and your partners on any given night call the game the same in the first quarter and call the same thing in the fourth quarter?? If we did then we feel we did a pretty good job that night.
Now let me make the so called "over the back call", in the book "push". A defensive or offensive player goes up for the rebound, the player behind them jumps also and gets the ball but no displacement happens you let it go. You can also have contact from behind but does not knock the player in front off their space. No call is made!!! FLUENCY-players can move up and down the floor without a whistle everytime you go from one end to another. The other case a player who has inside position goes up for the rebound and the player from behind goes up and displaces the player in front causing the player to travel, go to the floor, go out of bounds, then a foul should be called. What if their is no displacement but contact is made?? We 99% of the time let it go, nothing was gained by the offese or defense so why stop the game??? Fluency
Last but not least, why do you all think we officiate this game?? MOST of us do it for the love of the game of basketball!! If you think we all do it for just the money you are wrong (some do). I drive or ride with my partners on any given night to Logan, Chillicothe, Ironton, Jackson, Wellston, Warren, Athens, Manchester, etc... The earliest we have left this year from Lucasville is @ 3:15 to get to our game that night. That is after a days work already that we have put in. My partners will tell you that I HAVE to get there by the start of the jv. game. We then arrive home, anywhere between the times of earliest 9:30 P.M. to say 12:30 A.M. being the latest. I can tell you all this, the guys I work with throughout the season, LOVE TO OFFICIATE and that is the reason we do this thankless job!!!!



ManitouDan
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Re: REFS????

Post by ManitouDan » Sat Jan 22, 2011 10:08 am

good post browns , officiating is a tough thankless job.



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