Fight Over Rock About To Go To Grand Jury

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Fight Over Rock About To Go To Grand Jury

Post by ballparent » Fri Mar 07, 2008 3:12 pm

Fight over Ohio River rock about to go to a grand jury
Mar 06, 2008 @ 11:30 PM
The Associated Press
PORTSMOUTH, Ohio -- The border fight over a crudely carved 8-ton boulder known as Indian Head Rock is escalating.

Officials in Kentucky are hauling the mayor of Portsmouth into court in their effort to get back the rock, which an Ohio historian and a team of divers pulled from the Ohio River.

The river is mostly under Kentucky jurisdiction. The prosecutor in Greenup County, Ky., has issued a subpoena for Portsmouth Mayor Jim Kalb to testify before a grand jury on March 28 as a material witness in the removal of the boulder, which is being stored in a city-owned service garage.

"We have the Antiquities Act here in Kentucky, that involves things that are registered under that act through the University of Kentucky," said Greenup County Prosecuting Attorney Cliff Duvall. "It's a Class D felony, and in Kentucky, that carries one to five years. That charge will probably be the most applicable. There isn't any monetary value that anybody could put on it."

Kalb said he wasn't surprised when he received the subpoena.

"I got a call from my office a couple of days ago, saying that a member of the Scioto County sheriff's office was there to serve me with a subpoena," Kalb said Monday. "I kind of suspected that it would be over the rock."

Kentucky State Rep. Reginald Meeks, D-Louisville, a member of the state's Native American Heritage Commission, is sponsoring a resolution in the Kentucky General Assembly condemning the removal of the rock and demanding that it be returned to Kentucky.

"We're going to use all legal means to get them to return it to its rightful place in the commonwealth," he said in January.

Not much is known about the origin of Indian Head Rock, which has a crude carving of a face and another of a house, along with the names of several early settlers.

Some say it was a navigational marker. Its existence was known locally during the late 1800s and early 1900s, when it appeared once in a while when the river was low.

Historian Steve Shaffer of Ironton, who headed a team that retrieved the rock in September, said it had been submerged since at least 1920, before a system of dams kept the Ohio River at a relatively constant level.

He said there are five main theories about how a face was carved on the rock.

"One is that in 1851, messages were placed on the rock, likely by early pioneers to mark the low-water mark," Shaffer said.

"The second is that a quarry man carved it with a metal tool. Theory No. 3 is that a band of robbers used it as a marker when they buried their loot nearby. The fourth theory is that it was carved by Native Americans, and that theory began in an account in the 1891 edition of the Portsmouth newspaper. And the fifth theory is about 100-years-old. It says a boy named John Book, a prominent member of Scioto County society who was killed in the Civil War, carved it."

Kalb says he won't back down to Kentucky's demands.

"The rock belongs in Portsmouth. It's a logical place for it," Kalb said. "This is not a case of Kentucky wanting to display it, it's a case of them not wanting Portsmouth or Ohio to have it.

"This is an important part of Portsmouth history, and if the rock is on display, it will be for both sides of the river to enjoy. If it's Kentucky's intent to put the rock back in the river, that should be a crime in itself."



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Re: Fight Over Rock About To Go To Grand Jury

Post by Region 15 » Fri Mar 07, 2008 5:23 pm

So officials in Kentucky were perfectly content as long as the rock was submerged in the Ohio River. But, since some enterprising Ohio Historians showed some initiative and retrieved the rock they want it back.

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Re: Fight Over Rock About To Go To Grand Jury

Post by Bleachrbum » Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:36 pm

New York Times did a nice article and slide show on this issue. Go to New York Times and search for "indian head rock".www.nytimes.com/2008/02/11/us/11land.html

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Re: Fight Over Rock About To Go To Grand Jury

Post by TrojanXplosion » Sun Mar 09, 2008 7:06 pm

I know that some people from CBS have been to Portsmouth recently and interviewed people from Kentucky and Portsmouth about the "rock" and this particular piece of news will be aired on the CBS news on March 28th at 6:30 or 7 p.m. Be sure to tune in....

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Re: Fight Over Rock About To Go To Grand Jury

Post by caglewis » Sun Mar 09, 2008 9:44 pm

http://www.irontontribune.com/articles/ ... ocal01.txt

Big article in the Sunday Ironton Tribune today, complete with some old pictures. Kentucky does nothing, considers this unimportant, for years; but the minute Ohioans take the time, make the effort, and spend the money to reclaim this bit of history, Kentucky wants it "back"?
What they can have "back" is the Ironton-Russell Bridge across the River they say belongs to them and then pay to replace it. Oh right, Kentucky doesn't want to spend the money or do the work - they just want the credit and claim to ownership when someone else does it for them!

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Re: Fight Over Rock About To Go To Grand Jury

Post by Doc Panther » Fri Mar 28, 2008 7:03 pm

FalconFan wrote:I know that some people from CBS have been to Portsmouth recently and interviewed people from Kentucky and Portsmouth about the "rock" and this particular piece of news will be aired on the CBS news on March 28th at 6:30 or 7 p.m. Be sure to tune in....


Just watched it......nice 2 or 3 minute piece.....nice pub for Portsmouth. I'd like to see it....they showed some dates (1856) and pictures on it....as a student of Hopewell culture I'd be interested if it contained any Native American pictographs.


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Re: Fight Over Rock About To Go To Grand Jury

Post by ballparent » Fri Mar 28, 2008 8:54 pm

Since Steve Hartman did this piece for CBS you might want to tune in to CBS Sunday Morning that comes on at 9:30 a.m. (I think) on Sunday Morning (hence the name Sunday Morning :lol: ). His pieces that are on Friday's usually air again then. :12222

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Re: Fight Over Rock About To Go To Grand Jury

Post by ballparent » Sun Mar 30, 2008 1:10 am

The CBS show "Sunday Morning" came on at 9 a.m. and the Steve Hartman piece about "the rock" is going to be on this morning.


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Re: Fight Over Rock About To Go To Grand Jury

Post by Mouth's Better Half » Mon Jun 09, 2008 3:14 pm

I'm still baffled by KY owning parts of the river. I know this is a little off the subject but if they own anywhere near the Ironton/ Russell Bridge why aren't they paying for half of the reconstruction of the proposed new bridge?

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Re: Fight Over Rock About To Go To Grand Jury

Post by eagles73Taylor » Sun Jun 15, 2008 11:11 am

Jail time for spending his time and money on a project that took a large rock off of the bottom of a river? Only Kentucky! I wonder how much taxpayer money was spent starting this fiasco?

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Re: Fight Over Rock About To Go To Grand Jury

Post by Army » Sun Jun 29, 2008 4:27 am

Only Kentucky :!: :lol: :lol:

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Re: Fight Over Rock About To Go To Grand Jury

Post by kcarth305 » Sun Jan 11, 2009 9:06 am

hmm....That's quite an interesting story.... :shock: :shock: :122246

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Re: Fight Over Rock About To Go To Grand Jury

Post by tony181stewart » Mon Jan 12, 2009 12:22 pm

:12223
Last edited by tony181stewart on Mon Jan 12, 2009 12:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Fight Over Rock About To Go To Grand Jury

Post by tony181stewart » Mon Jan 12, 2009 12:22 pm

I am not clear on why the Ohio River belongs to Kentucky at all. I really doesnt make sense, can someone enlighten me on this?

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Re: Fight Over Rock About To Go To Grand Jury

Post by Doc Panther » Thu Jan 15, 2009 2:45 pm

Don't politicians have more important things to worry about....say unemployment and the cost of living?

This is friggin ridiculous.

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Re: Fight Over Rock About To Go To Grand Jury

Post by Orange and Brown » Mon Jan 19, 2009 1:20 pm

I say split it inhalf so each side can have a peice of it.
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Hey I have some big rocks in my back yard I can let the side that loses have!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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Re: Fight Over Rock About To Go To Grand Jury

Post by BigOrangeOne » Thu Feb 05, 2009 12:23 am

Mouth's Better Half wrote:I'm still baffled by KY owning parts of the river. I know this is a little off the subject but if they own anywhere near the Ironton/ Russell Bridge why aren't they paying for half of the reconstruction of the proposed new bridge?


I lived on the river for several years and my deed said that Ky. owned to the low water mark on the Ohio side. Never did find out where that was. :)

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Re: Fight Over Rock About To Go To Grand Jury

Post by Portsmouth98 » Tue Apr 14, 2009 12:15 am

Kentucky became a state first. I'm guessing that's how they "own" the river.

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Re: Fight Over Rock About To Go To Grand Jury

Post by Doc Panther » Sat Jul 25, 2009 11:51 am

It looks like KY. is about to drop the case.....finally sanity reigns....article from the PD:

http://www.portsmouth-dailytimes.com/pa ... _news_lead

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Re: Fight Over Rock About To Go To Grand Jury

Post by 1987chieftains » Wed Jul 29, 2009 3:49 pm

Doc Panther wrote:Don't politicians have more important things to worry about....say unemployment and the cost of living?

This is friggin ridiculous.


i couldn't agree with you more!!!
a rock is a rock. if it meant so much, they should have gotten it there selves. if it means so most the state of kentucky then why didn't they pay for the retieval of it on there state money. instead of a man and his own money?

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Re: Fight Over Rock About To Go To Grand Jury

Post by Burg_Grad_77 » Sun Aug 02, 2009 12:53 pm

I know it's the same rock. What they basing this on is the report done by Squier and Davis when they were in the area mapping the mounds that dotted the Portsmouth area at one time. They were told of a rock that was located in the Ohio River that the locals had dubbed Indian Head Rock and without ever even going to look at it they included it in their report and drew a picture of it looking like an actual Indian Head sticking up out of the water.

Squier and Davis

in "Ancient Monuments of the Mississippi Valley"

(1847) thus described it:

"It consists of a colossal human head cut in outline, upon the

vertical face of a large rock extending into the river. It is al-

ways under water, except when the river is at its very lowest

stages, and is not exposed oftener than once in four or five years.



I tried to find the picture that they made of the rock, but I can't find it. I did however find the map they made of the mounds while doing the survey of Portsmouth.

Image

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Re: Fight Over Rock About To Go To Grand Jury

Post by Doc Panther » Sun Aug 02, 2009 9:05 pm

So Burg77 where are the horseshoe mounds (Mound Park) on this map?

Are they in the plotted street map section on the left that says Portsmouth?

The most intriguing part of our Portsmouth earthworks were the ones on the Kentucky side. One author has a tour of Hopewell sites which includes Portsmouth....he doesn't go to the Ky. site since it's privately owned......but he said on the Noory Up All Night radio shows that it's a representation of Atlantis....I know...strange stuff.

I'm kinda into this since I have a ten chapter book almost finished....it's been a just for fun thing but I hope to get it published....not too far out...but one premise I have was that there was a road from Newark to Portsmouth that connected the two greatest Hopewell sites.

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Re: Fight Over Rock About To Go To Grand Jury

Post by Burg_Grad_77 » Sun Aug 02, 2009 10:28 pm

Doc, they are in the cluster of mounds right where all the lines come together. They look like two upside down "U's". Did you know that the one existing mound isn't an original? Both of these were destroyed a long time ago and the one was rebuilt, but not on the actual spot it was originally. If I'm not mistaken I think both were located where the school was that once sat across the street from the park and they were destroyed to build the school. I have maps that were put out a few years back that have all of the mounds of the Portsmouth area on them as well as all of the known Indian sites and trails. If you'd like one give me your address and I'll mail one to you.

I have actually stood inside what's left of the Medicine Wheel, which is the large circular enclosure at the bottom right of the map. It is located in a field behind the MarkWest Plant in South Shore and we used to hunt for artifacts back there years ago when they plowed it. There isn't much left of it, but you can still see some of the inside circle. Well, at least you could 20 years ago.

Also, this map doesn't show Tremper Mound located on the West Side where Rt 104 and Rt 73 split. It also doesn't show the mounds that were at the Feurt Site or the ones that were at Hardin Village in Greenup. I don't know why they didn't plot these since they were all very prominent mounds at the time.

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