Are scrimmages to rough? In a game with no foul outs, fouls are free, hard play is encouraged to show coaches that i can do what ever it takes to make the team. . .coaches want their players to play hard, officials call most not all fouls, as they too know that players are working for that starting spot or making the squad, and at times officials and coaches remove players, and let them cool off and back they come for some more. . sure injuries occur but when is hard, turn to rough, turn to out of control?
Check out this video, a hard intensional foul, resulting in a concussion and cracked rib. . .though hard foul was intended i m sure that injuries were not . . . but how many of u have watched scrimmages that get out of control? Ur Thoughts????
http://video.yahoo.com/watch/6456017?fr=yvmtf
Are Scrimmages to rough? Free fouls, hard play
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zerotosixtynforty
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Re: Are Scrimmages to rough? Free fouls, hard play
The slow motion effects do add to the dramatic feel, but I still cannot help but think the whole thing is a little ridiculous. If you think the game is too rough, my suggestion is to get out. Players shouldn’t be worried about fouling out, they should be focused on playing hard. Players should not be allowed to intentionally hurt one another, but injuries do occur. Both of these players looked like they had tunnel vision. It may have been a stupid foul, but the girl handling the ball could have avoided injury by passing to the open player as there was clearly a person ahead of her on the fast break. The game is becoming increasing more physical, and players will have to face that reality if they want to be competitive.
Last edited by forreal? on Sat Nov 28, 2009 9:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Are Scrimmages to rough? Free fouls, hard play
that is basketball
If that is 2 ruff take up cheerleading or band.
If that is 2 ruff take up cheerleading or band.
Re: Are Scrimmages to rough? Free fouls, hard play
The other girls didn't hurt her, the steps at the end of the court did it. Why would they scrimmage on an unsafe court?
Re: Are Scrimmages to rough? Free fouls, hard play
First of all, I hope Regina will be fine soon and doesn't suffer any lingering effects from the injury.
Second, from the video, the foul did not look intentional. The ref called the foul as he should have. Looked like a typical foul from a typical high school girls game.
Third, a scrimmage should be called under game conditions. It doesn't matter that somebody is trying hard to make the team or not, or trying to show the coach that they can play hard. You have to be able to play under control at all times. If you can't play under control, then you are no help to your team during the season. You can play with 4 fouls but not 5. If you can't get thru a quarter or 2 in a scrimmage and not stay under 4 fouls, consider another sport.
Finally, basketball is a noncontact sport and always has been. At some point in time, the way the game is coached and officiated has changed but the rules really haven't. At least, not to the point that contact is overlooked the way it is in today's game.
I have to agree, this gym is not setup to play any type of basketball game. The best you can hope from a gym like this is to hold gym class. Should have never been used for competitive play.
Second, from the video, the foul did not look intentional. The ref called the foul as he should have. Looked like a typical foul from a typical high school girls game.
Third, a scrimmage should be called under game conditions. It doesn't matter that somebody is trying hard to make the team or not, or trying to show the coach that they can play hard. You have to be able to play under control at all times. If you can't play under control, then you are no help to your team during the season. You can play with 4 fouls but not 5. If you can't get thru a quarter or 2 in a scrimmage and not stay under 4 fouls, consider another sport.
Finally, basketball is a noncontact sport and always has been. At some point in time, the way the game is coached and officiated has changed but the rules really haven't. At least, not to the point that contact is overlooked the way it is in today's game.
I have to agree, this gym is not setup to play any type of basketball game. The best you can hope from a gym like this is to hold gym class. Should have never been used for competitive play.
Re: Are Scrimmages to rough? Free fouls, hard play
I think at times scrimmages can get too rough for several reasons.
1. Schools use officials that are learning how to officiate the game to run scrimmages. This is all well and good, but make sure there is an official there that has been around the block so to speak to help these younger officials learn.
2. As said previously, players are playing hard which is GREAT, BUT they also need to learn that playing overly physical will not be allowed in regular games so why let them in scrimmages. This is only teaching bad habits. Something as a coach I try to teach my kids not to do. Play the game in practice, scrimmages, and previews like you will in a game that way you do not learn bad habits.
3. Officials and coaches want the game to run smoothly with little foul shooting to allow teams to work on things they want to work on. Again, this is great, but kids will and are getting hurt by some of the rough play that is allowed sometimes in scrimmages.
I am all for making kids tougher and telling them to suck it up when they might whine about a little ache or scratch, BUT it is hard to do when players are getting injuries that require a couple weeks of rehab to get them back into playing condition because of an injury that occurred during a scrimmage.
Just my 2 cents on the subject.
1. Schools use officials that are learning how to officiate the game to run scrimmages. This is all well and good, but make sure there is an official there that has been around the block so to speak to help these younger officials learn.
2. As said previously, players are playing hard which is GREAT, BUT they also need to learn that playing overly physical will not be allowed in regular games so why let them in scrimmages. This is only teaching bad habits. Something as a coach I try to teach my kids not to do. Play the game in practice, scrimmages, and previews like you will in a game that way you do not learn bad habits.
3. Officials and coaches want the game to run smoothly with little foul shooting to allow teams to work on things they want to work on. Again, this is great, but kids will and are getting hurt by some of the rough play that is allowed sometimes in scrimmages.
I am all for making kids tougher and telling them to suck it up when they might whine about a little ache or scratch, BUT it is hard to do when players are getting injuries that require a couple weeks of rehab to get them back into playing condition because of an injury that occurred during a scrimmage.
Just my 2 cents on the subject.
Re: Are Scrimmages to rough? Free fouls, hard play
I don't know that I have ever considered basketball a NON CONTACT sport.....part of the fundamentals of the game are blocking out, getting your body against your opponents body to keep them from getting the rebound.....and a good post player will use the defensive and their body location to make a move off of them, to go to the basket. Wikipedia doesn't think Basketball is considered a NON contact sport either. And anyone who has played basketball ever in their life has been told by one coach or another, "No Easy Baskets underneath....." The intention is not to take the girl out....but to make sure there are no easy baskets made underneath or on fast breaks. I truly don't think that girl from Trimble was trying to take out the Belpre Girl.....She was doing what every girl has been told by every coach she has ever had since youth league.....No Easy Baskets......The steps caused the the injury at the end of the court, Trimble needs to get some mats, or find a different court to play on.
Full-contact
A (full) contact sport or collision sport is any sport in which significant physical impact force on players, either deliberate or incidental, is allowed for within the rules of the game.
Contact actions include tackling, body checking and blocking and a whole range of other moves which can differ substantially in their rules and degree of application.
Examples of contacts sports are: Australian rules football, rugby league, rugby union, American football, ice hockey, lacrosse, water polo, amateur wrestling, and team handball in Europe. Full-contact martial arts include boxing, MMA, taekwondo (under WTF rules), puroresu, jujutsu, Muay Thai, judo, and various forms of full contact karate. Also, kickboxing in the early seventies in the United States was born which introduced a controlled version of full contact to martial arts.
[edit] Semi-contact
A semi-contact sport is typically a combat sport involving striking and which contains physical contact between the combatants simulating full-power techniques. The techniques are restricted to limited power, and rendering the opponent unconscious is forbidden.
Some semi-contact sports use a point system to determine the winner and use extensive protective gear to protect the athletes from injury. Examples of semi-contact sports include Taekwondo (under ITF rules), amateur kick-boxing and various styles of Kung Fu that incorporate semi-contact rules sparring or Kendo with its use of extensive protective gear.
This category also includes sports that prohibit violent contact but contact is still allowed and occurs within the rules. Examples of this are Association Football and basketball.
[edit] Limited-contact
Limited-contact sports are sports in which the rules are specifically designed to prevent contact between players either intentionally or unintentionally. Although contact can still happen, strong penalties are often used to discourage all contact between players. These penalties, including physically removing players from the field of play, means that contact is generally rare.
Examples include baseball, netball, squash, running and ultimate frisbee.[6]
[edit] Non-contact sports
Non-contact sports are sports where players are physically separated such as to make it nearly impossible for them to make contact during the course of a game. Examples include all forms of tennis, cricket, darts, bowling, volleyball, netball, swimming, and squash.
However, there is still opportunity for 'indirect' contact, such as being hit with a ball, whether deliberatly or not. Most notably with cricket, bowlers can bowl bodyline or bouncers, balls intended to hit another player.
On January 27, 2009, the Wisconsin Supreme Court ruled that cheerleading is a contact sport.[7]
Full-contact
A (full) contact sport or collision sport is any sport in which significant physical impact force on players, either deliberate or incidental, is allowed for within the rules of the game.
Contact actions include tackling, body checking and blocking and a whole range of other moves which can differ substantially in their rules and degree of application.
Examples of contacts sports are: Australian rules football, rugby league, rugby union, American football, ice hockey, lacrosse, water polo, amateur wrestling, and team handball in Europe. Full-contact martial arts include boxing, MMA, taekwondo (under WTF rules), puroresu, jujutsu, Muay Thai, judo, and various forms of full contact karate. Also, kickboxing in the early seventies in the United States was born which introduced a controlled version of full contact to martial arts.
[edit] Semi-contact
A semi-contact sport is typically a combat sport involving striking and which contains physical contact between the combatants simulating full-power techniques. The techniques are restricted to limited power, and rendering the opponent unconscious is forbidden.
Some semi-contact sports use a point system to determine the winner and use extensive protective gear to protect the athletes from injury. Examples of semi-contact sports include Taekwondo (under ITF rules), amateur kick-boxing and various styles of Kung Fu that incorporate semi-contact rules sparring or Kendo with its use of extensive protective gear.
This category also includes sports that prohibit violent contact but contact is still allowed and occurs within the rules. Examples of this are Association Football and basketball.
[edit] Limited-contact
Limited-contact sports are sports in which the rules are specifically designed to prevent contact between players either intentionally or unintentionally. Although contact can still happen, strong penalties are often used to discourage all contact between players. These penalties, including physically removing players from the field of play, means that contact is generally rare.
Examples include baseball, netball, squash, running and ultimate frisbee.[6]
[edit] Non-contact sports
Non-contact sports are sports where players are physically separated such as to make it nearly impossible for them to make contact during the course of a game. Examples include all forms of tennis, cricket, darts, bowling, volleyball, netball, swimming, and squash.
However, there is still opportunity for 'indirect' contact, such as being hit with a ball, whether deliberatly or not. Most notably with cricket, bowlers can bowl bodyline or bouncers, balls intended to hit another player.
On January 27, 2009, the Wisconsin Supreme Court ruled that cheerleading is a contact sport.[7]
Re: Are Scrimmages to rough? Free fouls, hard play
fury27...
I love a good debate, so here goes;
Basketball is a noncontact sport and was designed as such and still is today. While many top professional and college coaches teach otherwise, the rules still call for a foul when contact is made.
Reaching into an offensive player's area; "...if a defensive player reaches in to attempt a steal or distract the offensive player they are guarding and doesn't create any CONTACT, no foul should be called. Reaching in isn't a foul until CONTACT is made. The correct call is not reaching, but either holding or pushing."
Over the back; "...when rebounding the ball officials should only make a foul call when CONTACT is made, just like in reaching in, over the back is not a foul until CONTACT is made - then it should be a pushing foul. Even if a smaller player has a good rebounding position against a taller player, a foul should not be called if the taller player can get the rebound without touching or CONTACTING the smaller player."
A player can box out, establish and hold their position on the box without CONTACTING the other player.
Today's game of elbows and leaning on the other player which create contact are fouls. While I will agree that much of what we see on the court, how the game is coached and called is taken for granted that it is legal, it is in fact not legal within the rules of the game.
Most coaches, especially the Tom Izzos of the world will whine to high heaven about not getting a call if their player is as much as breathed on and then turn around a scream that their player didn't foul the other player after shoving them off the box with 2 hands as this was his right to do so in that he could properly establish his position which is well within the rules.
Coaches such as these and yes, he does have a national championship ring to show for it, don't have a real understanding of the game and try to create an unfair advantage for a team that cannot execute properly. These type of coaches are not worthy to carry John Wooden's jock strap.
One last item, from the video presented above, it was not too many short years ago that this type of foul, coming up from behind the offensive player to foul, would have been called as an intentional foul. Today, it is merely a foul. That is how the game has changed in just a short time. I do not think the young lady who did foul did so with malice, it does show that the game is not being taught correctly at the earliest of ages. We only copy and do what we see on TV and accept it as the norm.
JMHO.
I love a good debate, so here goes;
Basketball is a noncontact sport and was designed as such and still is today. While many top professional and college coaches teach otherwise, the rules still call for a foul when contact is made.
Reaching into an offensive player's area; "...if a defensive player reaches in to attempt a steal or distract the offensive player they are guarding and doesn't create any CONTACT, no foul should be called. Reaching in isn't a foul until CONTACT is made. The correct call is not reaching, but either holding or pushing."
Over the back; "...when rebounding the ball officials should only make a foul call when CONTACT is made, just like in reaching in, over the back is not a foul until CONTACT is made - then it should be a pushing foul. Even if a smaller player has a good rebounding position against a taller player, a foul should not be called if the taller player can get the rebound without touching or CONTACTING the smaller player."
A player can box out, establish and hold their position on the box without CONTACTING the other player.
Today's game of elbows and leaning on the other player which create contact are fouls. While I will agree that much of what we see on the court, how the game is coached and called is taken for granted that it is legal, it is in fact not legal within the rules of the game.
Most coaches, especially the Tom Izzos of the world will whine to high heaven about not getting a call if their player is as much as breathed on and then turn around a scream that their player didn't foul the other player after shoving them off the box with 2 hands as this was his right to do so in that he could properly establish his position which is well within the rules.
Coaches such as these and yes, he does have a national championship ring to show for it, don't have a real understanding of the game and try to create an unfair advantage for a team that cannot execute properly. These type of coaches are not worthy to carry John Wooden's jock strap.
One last item, from the video presented above, it was not too many short years ago that this type of foul, coming up from behind the offensive player to foul, would have been called as an intentional foul. Today, it is merely a foul. That is how the game has changed in just a short time. I do not think the young lady who did foul did so with malice, it does show that the game is not being taught correctly at the earliest of ages. We only copy and do what we see on TV and accept it as the norm.
JMHO.
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southernohiofan
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Re: Are Scrimmages to rough? Free fouls, hard play
IMO opinion i like to see scrimmages played under game conditions- four quarters and 5 fouls and your out. if teams want to play extra quarters then do so
Re: Are Scrimmages to rough? Free fouls, hard play
I agree, keep track of fouls and sit players out. What are they learning if they can commit 10 or more fouls. I have seen scrimmages in boys and girls where players commit 5+ plus fouls a quarter. Don't tell me it's a "contact" sport and suck it up crap, if there is no threat of fouling out , dirty players will play even dirtier.
Watched the video after posting and the whole problem with this injury is the steps and stage at the end of the court. I think that is a setup for disaster and a lawsuit. The foul would not have been that bad at all had there been a padded wall there.
Watched the video after posting and the whole problem with this injury is the steps and stage at the end of the court. I think that is a setup for disaster and a lawsuit. The foul would not have been that bad at all had there been a padded wall there.
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zerotosixtynforty
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Re: Are Scrimmages to rough? Free fouls, hard play
Great posts and thoughts, just some 411, i hear Regina will be cleared to play Nov 30, and if anyone knows her she "sucks it up" when most would be done or out, and after this injury occurred they did place some pads on the stairs, Basketball has changed over the years, athletes are stronger, faster, and better. . .Coaches want the hard, physical play, just ask them. the Officials have the double edged sword, that's to ticky tac its a scrimmage or i know its only a scrimmage but someone going to get hurt, some parents are in midseason form and yelling at the coach whos always and idiot and the officials are blind, and their johnny/suzy get fouled and never foul. . and to new officials are trying to learn how to position themself or get in the right position, applying what they have learn in class to an oncourt scrimmage. . . alot of factors to consider. . . hope all the players stay injury free this season, and coaches win every game, parents see the players start and play every minute, and officials never get booo'ed. . .well lets just hope for an injury free season. . . . happy posting. . .
Re: Are Scrimmages to rough? Free fouls, hard play
It's a little too late for the pads. They will be lucky to get out of this without a law suit. Some things are so obviously unsafe it baffles me as to how they get let go. We have a local HS gymnasium (New Boston) that has a set of concrete steps on the edge of the court and the steps run up next to the court with no padding on the edge of the steps or the underside on the bottom of the steps as they go up next to the court. I can't believe in all the years that NW has played in that gym that someone hasn't been seriously injured. Your talking about $50.00 dollars worth of padding. I know becuase I put padding on my fireplace hearth edge when my kids were little.
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sportsfanatic4life
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Re: Are Scrimmages to rough? Free fouls, hard play
That was truly a hard foul. The "no easy basket" was in effect. No need for that in a scrimmage. However, it looks to me like in the video there could have been an easy basket had she given it up to either of the 2 girls ahead of her. Hate to hear she was injured and hope she is doing fine.
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Willy Cheatem
- Riding the Bench
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Re: Are Scrimmages to rough? Free fouls, hard play
The way you do it is call most of the fouls on the home team. They prolly already gave you some games just cause you are doing the scrimmage. This way the away team will want you to do some of their games cause you give them all the calls. Thats how my crew does it any way. 