Tournament Refs vs Regular Season Refs

Ed Ott
Freshman Team
Posts: 131
Joined: Sun Jan 15, 2017 9:02 pm

Re: Tournament Refs vs Regular Season Refs

Post by Ed Ott » Wed Mar 01, 2017 2:00 pm

formerfcfan wrote:
reds4life wrote:I think this is true. I also think it's worse in girls basketball. Way too much reaching, grabbing, pushing, holding,etc. A boys game is so much cleaner with less fouls being called. I think it starts at the lower levels where apparently refs don't think girls are talented enough to play by the actual rules and thus the game gets called differently. Then, the girls get by with it and then it progresses from there.

In my experience, girls basketball at the sub-varsity level (JV; Jr High and middle school) is generally the hardest to ref. There is a lot of sloppy play, such as turnovers; double dribbles; bad defense; hacking etc. Anything 7th grade and up, it's imperative to call like you would a regular game... even if it means the game moves so as molasses.

But, for biddy level it is different. Yes, you should call biddy games like you would a regular game. Should being that since the league promises to coaches they use OHSAA certified refs, they are going to have competent reffing that enforces and calls the travels and grabbing and what not. Does expectation always meet reality? No; especially not when biddy league directors prioritize a game finishing in its 50 minute time slot over a game that is called completely (or near completely) correct that goes over 10-15 minutes. If a ref in biddy league were to call every single grab, push, hold that happens in biddy league (yes, those can happen frequently in biddy), then you would have little kids shooting 1-and-1's and in the double bonus with several minutes left in each half. For a biddy league director, that can be disastrous from a time management perspective if a game has a bunch of trips to the free throw line when it comes to little kids. They move slow, they often don't have the "where do we need to be lined up for FT's" quite down yet, you have coaches taking their time making substitutions etc. Since most biddy leagues run schedules where there are five-to-seven games in a gym on a certain day (Saturday or Sunday), it only takes one game that is backed up due to stoppages on the clock (e.g. FT's) to have a domino effect on the rest of the day.

In biddy, unless the game is tight and there is still 'something to play for' from a win/loss perspective (e.g. if it's a four point game with a few minutes left) then the only thing that calling non-detrimental fouls does is it invites drama and angry parents in a situation that can frankly go without it. Sure, the same can be said for JR high, JV and maybe varsity; but since a lot of biddy leagues use the same couple refs calling games for the same handful of teams over a 5-6 week period, as a ref (whether you want to engage in it or not) you can end up on the receiving end of some seriously ugly feuding and nastiness that will just come back the next week and the week after all because you called a certain kid for a shove.
Two 20 minute halves with running clock.



clevelandbrowns#1
Varsity
Posts: 507
Joined: Mon Aug 22, 2005 12:25 pm

Re: Tournament Refs vs Regular Season Refs

Post by clevelandbrowns#1 » Wed Mar 01, 2017 2:45 pm

Biddy ball? Where did that come from?

formerfcfan
All Conference
Posts: 936
Joined: Sat Oct 24, 2015 2:41 pm
Location: Amanda, OH

Re: Tournament Refs vs Regular Season Refs

Post by formerfcfan » Wed Mar 01, 2017 3:47 pm

clevelandbrowns#1 wrote:Biddy ball? Where did that come from?
In reference to the comment on why girls may think they can get away with fouls if they aren't called at lower levels. Wasn't meant as a derail, just that comment stood out to me & wanted to add to the thought.

reds4life
Waterboy
Posts: 35
Joined: Mon Jul 09, 2012 6:56 pm

Re: Tournament Refs vs Regular Season Refs

Post by reds4life » Wed Mar 01, 2017 7:49 pm

baseball16 wrote:Question:

Do you want to see a game with 40-50 fouls called or a game with 10-20 fouls called and Flow of the game is a lot better??

See, Fans want this: If it's too rough they want every ticky tack call to be called. However, Refs call it this way, then they start yelling to let them play. Happens every time. Hard to have it both ways.

Reffing is fun and enjoyable for many of us. It allows us to stay in the game and be a part of it. I highly encourage anyone to take the class and begin reffing. (Demand continues to be high) You will open your eyes to more of the game and flow of the game.
I think if you use officiating as a teaching tool at the lower levels then it improves the level of play as players get older. So, yes, call it according to the rules. I choose the former not the latter. Kids need to learn the correct way to play the game. I love to see teams get in the bonus in biddy ball and Jr high. It makes kids and coaches accountable for hacking, reaching, and grabbing. It's really prevalent on the girls side right now and needs to be improved.

mhs95_06
All State
Posts: 1231
Joined: Mon Nov 16, 2009 9:24 pm

Re: Tournament Refs vs Regular Season Refs

Post by mhs95_06 » Wed Mar 01, 2017 9:58 pm

Ed Ott wrote:
formerfcfan wrote:
reds4life wrote:I think this is true. I also think it's worse in girls basketball. Way too much reaching, grabbing, pushing, holding,etc. A boys game is so much cleaner with less fouls being called. I think it starts at the lower levels where apparently refs don't think girls are talented enough to play by the actual rules and thus the game gets called differently. Then, the girls get by with it and then it progresses from there.

In my experience, girls basketball at the sub-varsity level (JV; Jr High and middle school) is generally the hardest to ref. There is a lot of sloppy play, such as turnovers; double dribbles; bad defense; hacking etc. Anything 7th grade and up, it's imperative to call like you would a regular game... even if it means the game moves so as molasses.

But, for biddy level it is different. Yes, you should call biddy games like you would a regular game. Should being that since the league promises to coaches they use OHSAA certified refs, they are going to have competent reffing that enforces and calls the travels and grabbing and what not. Does expectation always meet reality? No; especially not when biddy league directors prioritize a game finishing in its 50 minute time slot over a game that is called completely (or near completely) correct that goes over 10-15 minutes. If a ref in biddy league were to call every single grab, push, hold that happens in biddy league (yes, those can happen frequently in biddy), then you would have little kids shooting 1-and-1's and in the double bonus with several minutes left in each half. For a biddy league director, that can be disastrous from a time management perspective if a game has a bunch of trips to the free throw line when it comes to little kids. They move slow, they often don't have the "where do we need to be lined up for FT's" quite down yet, you have coaches taking their time making substitutions etc. Since most biddy leagues run schedules where there are five-to-seven games in a gym on a certain day (Saturday or Sunday), it only takes one game that is backed up due to stoppages on the clock (e.g. FT's) to have a domino effect on the rest of the day.

In biddy, unless the game is tight and there is still 'something to play for' from a win/loss perspective (e.g. if it's a four point game with a few minutes left) then the only thing that calling non-detrimental fouls does is it invites drama and angry parents in a situation that can frankly go without it. Sure, the same can be said for JR high, JV and maybe varsity; but since a lot of biddy leagues use the same couple refs calling games for the same handful of teams over a 5-6 week period, as a ref (whether you want to engage in it or not) you can end up on the receiving end of some seriously ugly feuding and nastiness that will just come back the next week and the week after all because you called a certain kid for a shove.
Two 20 minute halves with running clock.
Exactly, as they learn, the more of the 2 20 min halves they can play rather than have play stopped.

REFEREE11
Riding the Bench
Posts: 54
Joined: Fri Dec 18, 2015 9:41 am

Re: Tournament Refs vs Regular Season Refs

Post by REFEREE11 » Thu Mar 02, 2017 4:40 pm

It's never consistent but I can say that people see things from their angle in the gym than the way refs might see it. Refs want to do a good job to get future games. They are on spotlight especially in tourney play.

baseball16
Varsity
Posts: 469
Joined: Fri Oct 02, 2009 8:03 am

Re: Tournament Refs vs Regular Season Refs

Post by baseball16 » Fri Mar 03, 2017 8:59 am

REFEREE11 wrote:It's never consistent but I can say that people see things from their angle in the gym than the way refs might see it. Refs want to do a good job to get future games. They are on spotlight especially in tourney play.
I think it should get even tighter when it comes to being in the spotlight. I officiate about 25 boys games and 14 girls games this past year. However, not once was I ever evaluated. I think we should be evaluated 2-3 times per year. Start Weeding out (Even if it's me) some of the guys that do not need to be officiating varsity basketball games. This would only make the games, myself, and the crew I work with better.
How do you do this? Not sure? Maybe assignors go around to games and evaluate.
I am friends with a guy in the Central District and he said they are evaluated 3-5 times a year. If you don't show improvement you will not be officiating the following year. Nor will you get tournament games.
Go to the Convo, it's the same guys over and over again. Not that 95% of them are not deserving, but I am sure some are there on name alone.
Also, I saw past tournament games that the official doesn't even run to get into position nor care to even try. That is what many people see and that leaves a bad impression on the rest of the crews that work their tail off!!

Birdman
Riding the Bench
Posts: 72
Joined: Mon Dec 05, 2005 2:13 pm

Re: Tournament Refs vs Regular Season Refs

Post by Birdman » Thu Mar 16, 2017 10:11 pm

I officiated in Kentucky and Ohio ( OVC ) for years, in Ky. we were evaluated four times a year, in Ohio I never was. I watch about 15 high school games a yr now and I hate to say the officials around here OVC are not very good. You talked about weeding them out you can't because they need officials the numbers are way down.

User avatar
Ground Buck
Varsity
Posts: 494
Joined: Tue Oct 27, 2015 8:18 pm

Re: Tournament Refs vs Regular Season Refs

Post by Ground Buck » Fri Mar 17, 2017 1:25 pm

I agree with the one guy who said something about experience helps refs learn to "manage the game." My favorite refs are the ones who can manage the crowd too. The best ones walk onto the court looking for someone to throw out, just to set the tone. They then glare at the players and anyone who questions anything they do. Yes, and rabbit ears are a prerequisite for any chance to be called the best. :mrgreen:

Post Reply