Seedings???

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Soccerfan1
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Seedings???

Post by Soccerfan1 » Mon Oct 03, 2016 9:46 am

Quick Question:

Should seedings for the tournament be done by only the coaches?

or

Should coaches, referees, and other rankings be included in the ranking system for the tournament?



What is your viewpoint??



4thgoal
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Re: Seedings???

Post by 4thgoal » Mon Oct 03, 2016 10:09 am

Interesting thought to have the officials be part of the seeding process. I have seen some votes by coaches that make you scratch your head and wonder what they were thinking and I am sure the same would be seen from officials. Honestly, one of the best ranking systems I have seen is the Maher Rankings that takes into account strength of schedule. As long as humans are doing the seeding, there will be a personal bias and conferences will vote together to sway the process.

I would not be opposed to going to the Maher Rankings, but I think adding officials into the process would only muddy the waters more.

Falcon01
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Re: Seedings???

Post by Falcon01 » Mon Oct 03, 2016 10:56 am

Using the Maher rankings is interesting but the problem with that is too many coaches don't update their dang scores on ossca so Maher rankings aren't as accurate as they could be.

As far as officials doing it, HELL NO. Officials for one don't see every team in the district, and they aren't someone I'd trust making good decisions about who should be seeded where.

Media doesn't cover enough soccer or make a good educated seeding decision either.

The seeding should be IN PERSON with the coaches only. Sure there will always be some bias, but your bias is out in the open...


One year unioto girls played us really tough at their place and so their coach Mark voted himself down 3 spots further than they should have been because he said he wanted to play us in sectional finals. What he didn't know was that he played us during our fair week and we didn't have a bunch of kids. We were up 9-0 at half of tourney game. Told that just cause it's my most fun memory of a seeding meeting. A coach saying vote me down, we want Fairfield Union.

Seeding meetings are fun, but stressful too. Especially if there are some good teams on your side. You have people who vote based on who they want to play, or don't want to play, then you have those who vote based on their conference affiliation and vote for each other.

Soccerfan1
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Re: Seedings???

Post by Soccerfan1 » Mon Oct 03, 2016 11:32 am

Question posed, because last year Stebenville Catholic Central (13-1-2) seeded Hiland LAST in the East District, so that they would get the #2 seed and chose to play Rosecrans in the Second round....

In the East District this year, Hiland, Rosecrans should be #1 and #2 seeds, but SCC is 12-0-0 as of today, but their opponents records combined have 12 victories on the season!! Where do you rank a team that is untested ALL YEAR

Maher rankings are great, but little to NO RESPECT is given to Southeast and East schools.
Falcon01 wrote:Using the Maher rankings is interesting but the problem with that is too many coaches don't update their dang scores on ossca so Maher rankings aren't as accurate as they could be.

As far as officials doing it, HELL NO. Officials for one don't see every team in the district, and they aren't someone I'd trust making good decisions about who should be seeded where.

Media doesn't cover enough soccer or make a good educated seeding decision either.

The seeding should be IN PERSON with the coaches only. Sure there will always be some bias, but your bias is out in the open...


One year unioto girls played us really tough at their place and so their coach Mark voted himself down 3 spots further than they should have been because he said he wanted to play us in sectional finals. What he didn't know was that he played us during our fair week and we didn't have a bunch of kids. We were up 9-0 at half of tourney game. Told that just cause it's my most fun memory of a seeding meeting. A coach saying vote me down, we want Fairfield Union.

Seeding meetings are fun, but stressful too. Especially if there are some good teams on your side. You have people who vote based on who they want to play, or don't want to play, then you have those who vote based on their conference affiliation and vote for each other.

Falcon01
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Re: Seedings???

Post by Falcon01 » Mon Oct 03, 2016 11:52 am

[quote="Soccerfan1"]Question posed, because last year Stebenville Catholic Central (13-1-2) seeded Hiland LAST in the East District, so that they would get the #2 seed and chose to play Rosecrans in the Second round....

In the East District this year, Hiland, Rosecrans should be #1 and #2 seeds, but SCC is 12-0-0 as of today, but their opponents records combined have 12 victories on the season!! Where do you rank a team that is untested ALL YEAR

Maher rankings are great, but little to NO RESPECT is given to Southeast and East schools.

[quote="Falcon01"]

THIS is because not enough coaches are updating their scores into the website. go to ossca, click every team on your teams schedule and just look at how many of them don't have full schedules up... Maher rankings use ossca for their scores so there are many games that don't make it in there.

4thgoal
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Re: Seedings???

Post by 4thgoal » Mon Oct 03, 2016 12:04 pm

Soccerfan1 wrote:In the East District this year, Hiland, Rosecrans should be #1 and #2 seeds, but SCC is 12-0-0 as of today, but their opponents records combined have 12 victories on the season!! Where do you rank a team that is untested ALL YEAR
Basically the exact opposite of that happened last year in D3. Zane Trace was 3-13 in the regular season and received a 8 seed and went on to the district finals. Their opponents were all D1 or D2 schools with a combined record 176-134-29 (including the tournament). Even though their record was poor, they were battle tested and much better than their record showed.

Too many times, someone sees a record (either good or bad) and assumes that tells the whole story. Sometimes you have a team with a great record that hasn't beaten anyone or a team with a horrible record that has played an impossible tough schedule

Falcon01
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Re: Seedings???

Post by Falcon01 » Mon Oct 03, 2016 12:16 pm

4thgoal wrote:
Soccerfan1 wrote:In the East District this year, Hiland, Rosecrans should be #1 and #2 seeds, but SCC is 12-0-0 as of today, but their opponents records combined have 12 victories on the season!! Where do you rank a team that is untested ALL YEAR
Basically the exact opposite of that happened last year in D3. Zane Trace was 3-13 in the regular season and received a 8 seed and went on to the district finals. Their opponents were all D1 or D2 schools with a combined record 176-134-29 (including the tournament). Even though their record was poor, they were battle tested and much better than their record showed.

Too many times, someone sees a record (either good or bad) and assumes that tells the whole story. Sometimes you have a team with a great record that hasn't beaten anyone or a team with a horrible record that has played an impossible tough schedule

we talked about that last year... saw that one coming. Coaches don't do their homework, and I'm not really sure why. We were always on ossca and other places looking for scores of other teams in the district all year long. Heck I'm still doing it now while 2500 miles away. Coaches just need to be more informed, which is another reason voting needs to be in person. Online, some coaches are going to write complete nonsense in their bios..

MarkWilliamson
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Re: Seedings???

Post by MarkWilliamson » Mon Oct 03, 2016 12:46 pm

Falcon01 wrote:One year unioto girls played us really tough at their place and so their coach Mark voted himself down 3 spots further than they should have been because he said he wanted to play us in sectional finals. What he didn't know was that he played us during our fair week and we didn't have a bunch of kids. We were up 9-0 at half of tourney game. Told that just cause it's my most fun memory of a seeding meeting. A coach saying vote me down, we want Fairfield Union.
Falcon01, that was 8 long years ago and I father time is catching up with me. I do remember that season ( which was our first .500 season and tournament win ) but I am pretty sure I made no such comment nor fudged the voting so that we could play you guys. I believe during that time from you, Circleville and ZT were the heavy hitters. We did make it to the District Final the following year.

Seeding meetings and award meetings were without question the most detested part of coaching HS soccer.

Falcon01
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Re: Seedings???

Post by Falcon01 » Mon Oct 03, 2016 1:10 pm

Lets not talk about how long ago it was, as it makes us all seem old! BUT, yes you asked to be I believe the 4 to get us second round. I only remember this because it was my first time actually going to the seeding. I was like wait are they pulling one over on the rookie here?? It was pretty intimidating. The sheet I had with me that Brian and I went over, was completely different than what ended up happening.

I miss seeing you around the board though, so I hope I have brought you out of retirement!! Though you've came with a new name... so maybe you are still here and I just forget what your original name was!??!!

I have never been part of a award meeting, but I've heard some stories!!

MarkWilliamson
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Re: Seedings???

Post by MarkWilliamson » Mon Oct 03, 2016 1:33 pm

Falcon01, I AM OLD ! :) I lurk but don't post. You woke me up though - heck I couldn't remember my signon so I created another. Prob won't post too much anyway. Good times back in the day ! If you are still in touch with Brian please tell him I said hello !

Falcon01
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Re: Seedings???

Post by Falcon01 » Mon Oct 03, 2016 3:16 pm

MarkWilliamson wrote:Falcon01, I AM OLD ! :) I lurk but don't post. You woke me up though - heck I couldn't remember my signon so I created another. Prob won't post too much anyway. Good times back in the day ! If you are still in touch with Brian please tell him I said hello !
Well since Brian and I left, I have moved to Mississippi, Hawaii, Texas, back to Ohio, and now California. So I don't speak to him much, but when I do I will certainly tell him. Hope all is well!

Keeper
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Re: Seedings???

Post by Keeper » Tue Oct 04, 2016 7:09 am

Would not be to hard to use a point system similar to footballs ranking system. Would take schedule into account and would take guess work out of it.

Soccerfan1
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Re: Seedings???

Post by Soccerfan1 » Wed Oct 05, 2016 11:49 am

Keeper wrote:Would not be to hard to use a point system similar to footballs ranking system. Would take schedule into account and would take guess work out of it.

Keeper, I like your thoughts... a point system that could also eliminate some teams from the tournament.... maybe top 8 in each district make it? or more for the bigger ones?

Falcon01
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Re: Seedings???

Post by Falcon01 » Wed Oct 05, 2016 11:59 am

4thgoal wrote:
Soccerfan1 wrote:In the East District this year, Hiland, Rosecrans should be #1 and #2 seeds, but SCC is 12-0-0 as of today, but their opponents records combined have 12 victories on the season!! Where do you rank a team that is untested ALL YEAR
Basically the exact opposite of that happened last year in D3. Zane Trace was 3-13 in the regular season and received a 8 seed and went on to the district finals. Their opponents were all D1 or D2 schools with a combined record 176-134-29 (including the tournament). Even though their record was poor, they were battle tested and much better than their record showed.

Too many times, someone sees a record (either good or bad) and assumes that tells the whole story. Sometimes you have a team with a great record that hasn't beaten anyone or a team with a horrible record that has played an impossible tough schedule

4thgoal, looks like this year that team will be alexander. They are 5-7-1, but have an opponents record that is 37 games above .500. Be interesting to see where they are voted at.

4thgoal
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Re: Seedings???

Post by 4thgoal » Wed Oct 05, 2016 1:48 pm

You could be right about Alexander, but hopefully coaches do their homework this time and realize they beat Southeastern, tied Wheelersburg and just lost to Jackson 2-1 this week. At the worst, I think Alexander should be a 3 seed. Also, the fact that Alexander and Zane Trace made it to the district finals last year should make the coaches realize their records do not reflect the level they play. Even with poor records, those 2 teams specifically play a tougher schedule than anyone else in that sectional.

4thgoal
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Re: Seedings???

Post by 4thgoal » Wed Oct 05, 2016 2:09 pm

Looking at head to head matchups:

Wheelersburg (11-0-1) beat Zane Trace, beat Minford twice and tied Alexander
Alexander (5-7-1) beat Southeastern and tied Wheelerburg
Southeastern (11-1-2) beat Minford, tied Zane Trace
Minford (8-5-2) no great wins, but tied North Adams
Zane Trace (4-8-2) tied Southeastern and Westfall
Chesapeake
Portsmouth West
Fairland
South Point

This is probably about how I would seed the east sectional. I don't have records for the bottom 4 teams, but they should fall something like that.

a_c_m
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Re: Seedings???

Post by a_c_m » Wed Oct 05, 2016 2:49 pm

4thgoal wrote:Looking at head to head matchups:

Wheelersburg (11-0-1) beat Zane Trace, beat Minford twice and tied Alexander
Alexander (5-7-1) beat Southeastern and tied Wheelerburg
Southeastern (11-1-2) beat Minford, tied Zane Trace
Minford (8-5-2) no great wins, but tied North Adams
Zane Trace (4-8-2) tied Southeastern and Westfall
Chesapeake
Portsmouth West
Fairland
South Point

This is probably about how I would seed the east sectional. I don't have records for the bottom 4 teams, but they should fall something like that.

The approximate records are:
South Point 2-3-0
Chesapeake 2-5-2
West 2-8-3
Fairland 1-5-2

Any corrections, please post!

Soccerfan1
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Re: Seedings???

Post by Soccerfan1 » Fri Oct 07, 2016 12:36 pm

How about the BOYS RANKINGS?

Soccerfan1
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Re: Seedings???

Post by Soccerfan1 » Sun Oct 09, 2016 4:17 pm

East district: on brackets

Boys:
Bishop Rosecrans #1
Hiland #2

Girls:
Bishop Rosecrans #1
Steubenville Catholic Central #2

Gview
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Re: Seedings???

Post by Gview » Fri Oct 14, 2016 8:40 am

Keeper wrote:Would not be to hard to use a point system similar to footballs ranking system. Would take schedule into account and would take guess work out of it.
You can't put rankings above coaches input. The ranking doesn't show you anything but the result. And the results can be scewed based on players, sickness, vacation, senior night, etc. If we are going to do this all on mathematical calculations then why the play the games? The formula can figure it out, well except for the upsets that happen every year.

The Maher rankings are cool to see where your team is against all the teams. But it averages around the mid 80's in so far as calculating results-I still believe that to be too low in the grand scheme of ranking a team based on their performances.

You can learn so much by watching your opponent before you play them that sometimes you can make simple adjustments and beat them. Sometimes it's not so easy.

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