Pitch Count Is Here!!!

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Abe Froman
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Re: Pitch Count Is Here!!!

Post by Abe Froman » Sat Mar 04, 2017 1:39 pm

One of about 10,000 articles readily available to anyone with internet access:

It's estimated that there are over 6 million youth and adolescent baseball players in the United States. Studies of American youth and high school baseball players have found an incidence of elbow pain of 26% among youth players and 58% among high school players. The incidence of shoulder pain was found to be 29% to 35%. This represents a significant number of shoulder and elbow throwing injuries. These injuries are on the rise in the U.S. and Dr. James Andrews has described this as an epidemic. He reported an alarming sequential increase in the number of Ulnar Collateral Ligament reconstructions (Tommy John surgery) in high school versus college or professional pitchers over three consecutive four-year periods.

Percent of High School Pitchers undergoing Tommy John Surgery:

1995-1998: 8%

1999-2002: 17%

2003-2006: 24%

The increasing rate of shoulder and elbow injuries is related to how much athletes are throwing. USA Baseball and Little League Baseball now have rules designed to help protect athletes from these injuries. Adhering to these pitch counts is a priority in avoiding injury. For those playing on more than one team, the pitch counts are the total for all teams.



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Abe Froman
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Re: Pitch Count Is Here!!!

Post by Abe Froman » Sat Mar 04, 2017 1:40 pm

And the above study only showing data through 2006.

petesweaty
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Re: Pitch Count Is Here!!!

Post by petesweaty » Sat Mar 04, 2017 2:37 pm

Also, it seems every doctor finds something wrong with the kid. Parents run their kid to the doctor today if there is any soreness in the arm. The doctor will find something to rehab. If you pitch, you are going to have some soreness or stiffness.

PVCGuru
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Re: Pitch Count Is Here!!!

Post by PVCGuru » Sat Mar 04, 2017 3:15 pm

Pitching limits in travel ball depends on the league/tournament but they are there. They aren't good enough in most cases IMO, but they are there.

The more research is done, the more that it points to overuse, not breaking balls as the primary cause for injuries.

Must be nice to live in Jackson where there has never been a coach abuse a kid's arm. It happens all the time. High school coaches are under serious pressure to win and sometimes that means short term team success over what's best for the kid

Ironman92
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Re: Pitch Count Is Here!!!

Post by Ironman92 » Sat Mar 04, 2017 4:21 pm

Abe Froman wrote:
Ironman92 wrote: What are the pitching limits in travel ball? If it's increased so much then it should be easy to name a dozen or so kids it affected and kept them from having a collegiate career.

Also, as firebreather noted...that kid's other position better not be catcher.

Teaching kids how to pitch without maximum velocity on their fastball would help too.

Anyone know the pitching limitations in high school back in the early 90's?

You seriously can't be arguing that there are not more arm injuries now than there were 10-15 years ago are you?

Is that what you are saying?

Why would you not throw you fastball with maximum velocity?
Because location is far more important and a pitcher who throws 82 mph will have better location throwing 77-79 mph

Never said there aren't more arm injuries. The data is fine. List me 3 names in the last decade from the SE district and I'll go away.

What is your thoughts on these pitchers that also get time at the catching position?

Ironman92
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Re: Pitch Count Is Here!!!

Post by Ironman92 » Sat Mar 04, 2017 4:25 pm

PVCGuru wrote:Pitching limits in travel ball depends on the league/tournament but they are there. They aren't good enough in most cases IMO, but they are there.

The more research is done, the more that it points to overuse, not breaking balls as the primary cause for injuries.

Must be nice to live in Jackson where there has never been a coach abuse a kid's arm. It happens all the time. High school coaches are under serious pressure to win and sometimes that means short term team success over what's best for the kid
What does Jackson have to do with any of this?

I still don't know who these kids are. Can you at least a school or two that had a kid or two have his career affected by the 10 in 3 rule.

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Re: Pitch Count Is Here!!!

Post by PVCGuru » Sat Mar 04, 2017 4:57 pm

Ironman92 wrote:
PVCGuru wrote:Pitching limits in travel ball depends on the league/tournament but they are there. They aren't good enough in most cases IMO, but they are there.

The more research is done, the more that it points to overuse, not breaking balls as the primary cause for injuries.

Must be nice to live in Jackson where there has never been a coach abuse a kid's arm. It happens all the time. High school coaches are under serious pressure to win and sometimes that means short term team success over what's best for the kid
What does Jackson have to do with any of this?

I still don't know who these kids are. Can you at least a school or two that had a kid or two have his career affected by the 10 in 3 rule.
Yes, a list of kids would make you come around, right?

I talked to a kid at the end of the season last year and asked why he wasn't throwing in the season finale? He was the team's clear #1 and he told me his arm was done for the season. Coach had literally maxed him out all season by throwing the most innings allowed.

Regardless of that kid's ability level, that was total abuse by the coach.

Did he pitch later that summer, sure. Did he injure his arm in a way that pops up somewhere down the road? Who knows. Point is it was stupid. This rule doesn't fix stupid, but it helps.

Ironman92
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Re: Pitch Count Is Here!!!

Post by Ironman92 » Sat Mar 04, 2017 10:19 pm

PVCGuru wrote:
Ironman92 wrote:
PVCGuru wrote:Pitching limits in travel ball depends on the league/tournament but they are there. They aren't good enough in most cases IMO, but they are there.

The more research is done, the more that it points to overuse, not breaking balls as the primary cause for injuries.

Must be nice to live in Jackson where there has never been a coach abuse a kid's arm. It happens all the time. High school coaches are under serious pressure to win and sometimes that means short term team success over what's best for the kid
What does Jackson have to do with any of this?

I still don't know who these kids are. Can you at least a school or two that had a kid or two have his career affected by the 10 in 3 rule.
Yes, a list of kids would make you come around, right?

I talked to a kid at the end of the season last year and asked why he wasn't throwing in the season finale? He was the team's clear #1 and he told me his arm was done for the season. Coach had literally maxed him out all season by throwing the most innings allowed.

Regardless of that kid's ability level, that was total abuse by the coach.

Did he pitch later that summer, sure. Did he injure his arm in a way that pops up somewhere down the road? Who knows. Point is it was stupid. This rule doesn't fix stupid, but it helps.
I doubt it helps. Stupid coaches find ways to keep up their stupid.

Hopefully that kid fully recovered and end his career on his note.

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Abe Froman
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Re: Pitch Count Is Here!!!

Post by Abe Froman » Sun Mar 05, 2017 1:48 pm

Ironman92 wrote:
Because location is far more important and a pitcher who throws 82 mph will have better location throwing 77-79 mph

Never said there aren't more arm injuries. The data is fine. List me 3 names in the last decade from the SE district and I'll go away.

What is your thoughts on these pitchers that also get time at the catching position?

Hitting a "location" by slowing your arm down to hit a "spot" I don't think is very accurate for most kids. Changing your velocity to the plate with off-speed by grip with a change-up or throwing a breaking ball is one thing. But throwing a "slower" "fastball" by slowing everything down in my experience does not improve your ability to hit a "spot". Just the opposite usually. The key to location is the ability to repeat the delivery on a consistent basis, sometimes changing arm slots has the effect for some kids to slow down their delivery. But all in all you want to try and be somewhat consistent in you delivery. Obviously with base runners you want to change how fast you go home, give different looks, etc., but when the sign is a fastball, throw the heater to the spot given. I wouldn't recommend holding back I don't think it provides more accuracy.

3 names that have done what? Had mid-season arm issues and had to miss a rotation? Not sure what you are getting at. OHSAA has taken the lead (wrong or right) in saying we are going to address the data. Same thing as with concussions in football, soccer, etc.. I am sure kids from 10-15 years ago and longer had sore arms and played with concussions. OHSAA is simply saying (now that they are faced with data), hey let's try and manage this for the safety of the game/sport.

Catching is completely different arm action. Yeah, ok the pitcher throws 85 pitches and the catcher "throws" back 85 times. Not even close to the same arm action. Even with the occasional throw down to second/third for stolen base attempt, the catcher does not get the same wear and tear as the pitcher. Now having said that, if I just was on the hill and threw 90 pitches, I am not sure I would want to gear up and squat down for the last inning or so, but if you are saying that 90 pitches from the hill = 90 throw backs from the catcher then I disagree...a lot.

The culprit here is travel ball, which now starts at 8 years old (even early), and runs through HS years. 9, 10, 11 year old kids are throwing a lot of pitches over the course of a summer weekend and the cumulative effect of that by the time they are in HS adds up. Typically not a big OHSAA fan, but I think they got this one and the concussion emphasis right.

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Re: Pitch Count Is Here!!!

Post by mhs95_06 » Fri Aug 17, 2018 11:35 pm

A question on pitch count rules. Do 4 pitches go against your pitch count when you intentionally walk someone? If so, and it comes to a batter you want to walk, and you are 3 pitches from the threshold, can you credit 3 to the outgoing pitcher and one to the incoming pitcher? Or do you have him throw 3 wide ones, then bring in the new pitcher? When you bring the new pitcher in can you just have the batter go to first for a count of one pitch, or do you have to throw it?

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Re: Pitch Count Is Here!!!

Post by danicalifornia » Fri Aug 24, 2018 10:02 am

mhs95_06 wrote:
Fri Aug 17, 2018 11:35 pm
A question on pitch count rules. Do 4 pitches go against your pitch count when you intentionally walk someone? If so, and it comes to a batter you want to walk, and you are 3 pitches from the threshold, can you credit 3 to the outgoing pitcher and one to the incoming pitcher? Or do you have him throw 3 wide ones, then bring in the new pitcher? When you bring the new pitcher in can you just have the batter go to first for a count of one pitch, or do you have to throw it?
You don’t have to throw the pitches, so no, it doesn’t count.

BBscout18-19
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Re: Pitch Count Is Here!!!

Post by BBscout18-19 » Wed Sep 26, 2018 10:54 pm

Mailman wrote:
Sun Jan 29, 2017 7:33 pm
125 max. Were there coaches letting pitchers throw more? 125 is a lot!!!
125 is most certainly a lot for a high school pitcher. We will see how this new rule affects how teams pitch come this spring.

blockcharge7
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Re: Pitch Count Is Here!!!

Post by blockcharge7 » Fri Sep 28, 2018 10:52 am

This has been in affect for the past two years

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