Is the Pitch Count Rule Hurting the Game?

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Fonzie
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Re: Is the Pitch Count Rule Hurting the Game?

Post by Fonzie » Tue Apr 30, 2019 11:54 am

Abe Froman wrote:
Sat Apr 20, 2019 9:52 am
As stated above I think most programs were using some form of pitch control prior to the implementation of the rule by OHSAA, whether it was a true count or innings worked or just monitoring the starts and days between rest. Obviously there was a need for a point of emphasis in OHSAA's mind in order to implement it, and I don't think it has impacted or hurt the game.

Not to change the subject but one thing in my mind that has hurt the game (I have witnessed 3-4 teams/coaches this year doing this) is the ridiculous use of wrist band and calling playings shouting a series of numbers/colors, etc. to call in pitches to the catchers for fastball/curve/slider/change-up or whatever. Totally disrupts the flow of the game, takes forever since the pitcher is ready to go, batter in the box and the catcher waits crouched for a "999 Red", then looks to his wrist finds the number/color, and of course by that time the pitcher has been set for 30 seconds, the batter backs out and it is rinse and repeat do it all over again.

Coaches this isn't about YOU, quit making everyone wait on you. It is about the student-athlete, you should be coaching the catcher/pitcher on where is the batters stance, is his swing a pull swing, what is the count, go over his spray chart from last at bat or the last time you played that team. TEACH the game - quit inserting yourself into the game - you are jacking it up with the incessant dumbing down of players by doing this instead of COACHING them on how to call a game.

Pitchers (or at least I did) want to work in rhythm, if I was grooving I was toeing the rubber immediately after last strike and ready to work quick, expected to see a sign from my beloved catcher (who to this day even though we are miles apart are the best of friends) and was rocking back and delivering the next one. If for example my catcher (or me for that matter) didn't know what to throw the 3-hole with a runner on second and a base open and no outs in a close game when the kid pulled 4 balls hard foul on the last 2 at bats then shame on us.

I get not every pitcher/catcher battery are seniors that know each other, so if the call is going to come from the dugout do it quick with an indicator and flash a couple signs - but GO. And in between innings teach that sophomore catcher why you called what you did. Go over what the next at bat did last time. Coach, teach. We (or at least me) don't want to listen 130 times a game to 708, 333, 401 and wait 30+ seconds between pitches, timeouts from the batter, etc. And I bet your team doesn't want to either - I guarantee a pitcher that is cruising wants to go, not wait on you.

Ok, I feel better now lol....keep the pitch count...ban the wrist band.

I agree with most of what you have to say. However, I have no issue with coaches call pitches. If the idea of the pitch count rule is to protect arms, then coaches calling pitches should have the same goal. From my experience, if you let 15-18 year old call pitches, you see a lot of curve balls thrown. Not good.

But to align with what you posted, if coaches are going to call pitches, then they need to be ready and take the focus off of him, and let the game flow naturally. Yes, teach the game, but you have to remember these are kids. By the time you have a junior or senior catcher that you trust, sure, let them call the game. You guide the kid for a couple years, as they learn, then set them on their own. That is teaching the game in my opinion.



MClaw
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Re: Is the Pitch Count Rule Hurting the Game?

Post by MClaw » Tue Apr 30, 2019 1:30 pm

I think most coaches call pitches simply because they keep track of what pitches have been thrown to each batter. You don't want a catcher guessing about what was thrown last time. If the pitcher doesn't throw a single curveball 1st time thru the order but is effective, then next time thru you're showing them something they haven't seen. Non-verbal hand signals work just fine, enough with the coach yelling out a series of #"s.



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Re: Is the Pitch Count Rule Hurting the Game?

Post by efarns » Wed May 01, 2019 1:19 pm

MClaw wrote:
Tue Apr 30, 2019 1:30 pm
I think most coaches call pitches simply because they keep track of what pitches have been thrown to each batter. You don't want a catcher guessing about what was thrown last time. If the pitcher doesn't throw a single curveball 1st time thru the order but is effective, then next time thru you're showing them something they haven't seen. Non-verbal hand signals work just fine, enough with the coach yelling out a series of #"s.
I was not an ace, but I generally knew what I got people out with earlier in the game. This isn't something that's beyond the capabilities of a high school pitcher. Teach them how to pitch and let them use their instincts.



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Re: Is the Pitch Count Rule Hurting the Game?

Post by Fonzie » Thu May 02, 2019 10:16 am

efarns wrote:
Wed May 01, 2019 1:19 pm
MClaw wrote:
Tue Apr 30, 2019 1:30 pm
I think most coaches call pitches simply because they keep track of what pitches have been thrown to each batter. You don't want a catcher guessing about what was thrown last time. If the pitcher doesn't throw a single curveball 1st time thru the order but is effective, then next time thru you're showing them something they haven't seen. Non-verbal hand signals work just fine, enough with the coach yelling out a series of #"s.
I was not an ace, but I generally knew what I got people out with earlier in the game. This isn't something that's beyond the capabilities of a high school pitcher. Teach them how to pitch and let them use their instincts.
I would love to believe this was true. Kids instincts tell them to throw junk or try and "blow it by" the guy. Kids throwing 70 aren't blowing it by many kids.

I think the bottom line is this, coaches want to be successful, if they struggle, parents (for the most part) don't care if little Johnny learned a lot if they are still losing. So coaches try to keep as much as possible within their control that they believe gives them a chance to win ball games. Which will allow them to keep their jobs.

Do you think college pitchers/catchers call their own games? Sure some do, but for the most part, coaches are still calling pitches at the next level. So lets not act like these high school kids are being short changed because their coach is calling the game.



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Re: Is the Pitch Count Rule Hurting the Game?

Post by efarns » Sun May 05, 2019 4:32 pm

Fonzie wrote:
Thu May 02, 2019 10:16 am
efarns wrote:
Wed May 01, 2019 1:19 pm
MClaw wrote:
Tue Apr 30, 2019 1:30 pm
I think most coaches call pitches simply because they keep track of what pitches have been thrown to each batter. You don't want a catcher guessing about what was thrown last time. If the pitcher doesn't throw a single curveball 1st time thru the order but is effective, then next time thru you're showing them something they haven't seen. Non-verbal hand signals work just fine, enough with the coach yelling out a series of #"s.
I was not an ace, but I generally knew what I got people out with earlier in the game. This isn't something that's beyond the capabilities of a high school pitcher. Teach them how to pitch and let them use their instincts.
I would love to believe this was true. Kids instincts tell them to throw junk or try and "blow it by" the guy. Kids throwing 70 aren't blowing it by many kids.

I think the bottom line is this, coaches want to be successful, if they struggle, parents (for the most part) don't care if little Johnny learned a lot if they are still losing. So coaches try to keep as much as possible within their control that they believe gives them a chance to win ball games. Which will allow them to keep their jobs.

Do you think college pitchers/catchers call their own games? Sure some do, but for the most part, coaches are still calling pitches at the next level. So lets not act like these high school kids are being short changed because their coach is calling the game.
I'm not arguing that it doesn't happen or it doesn't work. But it is certainly not for everybody. In my experience, a lot of the fun was in figuring out how to get people out. If a coach had been telling me what to throw, I probably wouldn't have enjoyed pitching as much and might not have played as long as I did. I wonder about how many players stop or don't play because 15 year-olds don't want to be micromanaged.



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Re: Is the Pitch Count Rule Hurting the Game?

Post by Fonzie » Mon May 06, 2019 9:30 am

efarns wrote:
Sun May 05, 2019 4:32 pm
Fonzie wrote:
Thu May 02, 2019 10:16 am
efarns wrote:
Wed May 01, 2019 1:19 pm


I was not an ace, but I generally knew what I got people out with earlier in the game. This isn't something that's beyond the capabilities of a high school pitcher. Teach them how to pitch and let them use their instincts.
I would love to believe this was true. Kids instincts tell them to throw junk or try and "blow it by" the guy. Kids throwing 70 aren't blowing it by many kids.

I think the bottom line is this, coaches want to be successful, if they struggle, parents (for the most part) don't care if little Johnny learned a lot if they are still losing. So coaches try to keep as much as possible within their control that they believe gives them a chance to win ball games. Which will allow them to keep their jobs.

Do you think college pitchers/catchers call their own games? Sure some do, but for the most part, coaches are still calling pitches at the next level. So lets not act like these high school kids are being short changed because their coach is calling the game.
I'm not arguing that it doesn't happen or it doesn't work. But it is certainly not for everybody. In my experience, a lot of the fun was in figuring out how to get people out. If a coach had been telling me what to throw, I probably wouldn't have enjoyed pitching as much and might not have played as long as I did. I wonder about how many players stop or don't play because 15 year-olds don't want to be micromanaged.
Yes because in the real world they will never have someone telling them what/how to do a task. Gotcha.



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Re: Is the Pitch Count Rule Hurting the Game?

Post by efarns » Wed May 08, 2019 8:02 am

Fonzie wrote:
Mon May 06, 2019 9:30 am
efarns wrote:
Sun May 05, 2019 4:32 pm
Fonzie wrote:
Thu May 02, 2019 10:16 am


I would love to believe this was true. Kids instincts tell them to throw junk or try and "blow it by" the guy. Kids throwing 70 aren't blowing it by many kids.

I think the bottom line is this, coaches want to be successful, if they struggle, parents (for the most part) don't care if little Johnny learned a lot if they are still losing. So coaches try to keep as much as possible within their control that they believe gives them a chance to win ball games. Which will allow them to keep their jobs.

Do you think college pitchers/catchers call their own games? Sure some do, but for the most part, coaches are still calling pitches at the next level. So lets not act like these high school kids are being short changed because their coach is calling the game.
I'm not arguing that it doesn't happen or it doesn't work. But it is certainly not for everybody. In my experience, a lot of the fun was in figuring out how to get people out. If a coach had been telling me what to throw, I probably wouldn't have enjoyed pitching as much and might not have played as long as I did. I wonder about how many players stop or don't play because 15 year-olds don't want to be micromanaged.
Yes because in the real world they will never have someone telling them what/how to do a task. Gotcha.
That escalated quickly. don't know about you, but in my work, nobody is looking over my shoulder telling me how to do everything.



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Re: Is the Pitch Count Rule Hurting the Game?

Post by Fonzie » Wed May 08, 2019 10:12 am

efarns wrote:
Wed May 08, 2019 8:02 am
Fonzie wrote:
Mon May 06, 2019 9:30 am
efarns wrote:
Sun May 05, 2019 4:32 pm


I'm not arguing that it doesn't happen or it doesn't work. But it is certainly not for everybody. In my experience, a lot of the fun was in figuring out how to get people out. If a coach had been telling me what to throw, I probably wouldn't have enjoyed pitching as much and might not have played as long as I did. I wonder about how many players stop or don't play because 15 year-olds don't want to be micromanaged.
Yes because in the real world they will never have someone telling them what/how to do a task. Gotcha.
That escalated quickly. don't know about you, but in my work, nobody is looking over my shoulder telling me how to do everything.
Which leaves you unemployed. No matter the occupation, there is some sort of oversight. Granted some may leave more individual freedom than others. Bottom line is coaches have a vested interest in the teams success, players health and safety, and ultimately, guiding their team towards success that will allow them to keep their job. We can agree to disagree. I respect a difference of opinions. Surely your experiences have shaped your opinion, as have mine.



efarns
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Re: Is the Pitch Count Rule Hurting the Game?

Post by efarns » Wed May 08, 2019 3:17 pm

Fonzie wrote:
Wed May 08, 2019 10:12 am
efarns wrote:
Wed May 08, 2019 8:02 am
Fonzie wrote:
Mon May 06, 2019 9:30 am


Yes because in the real world they will never have someone telling them what/how to do a task. Gotcha.
That escalated quickly. don't know about you, but in my work, nobody is looking over my shoulder telling me how to do everything.
Which leaves you unemployed. No matter the occupation, there is some sort of oversight. Granted some may leave more individual freedom than others. Bottom line is coaches have a vested interest in the teams success, players health and safety, and ultimately, guiding their team towards success that will allow them to keep their job. We can agree to disagree. I respect a difference of opinions. Surely your experiences have shaped your opinion, as have mine.
Despite an average arm, I had a winning record in high school, yet coaches were not calling pitches. I am employed, yet I have freedom in the way I accomplish my job. Bottom line - independence can work.



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