Div III Reg. 11

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Abe Froman
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Re: Div III Reg. 11

Post by Abe Froman »

X8XOHIOLEGENDX7X wrote: Mon Oct 02, 2017 3:51 pm Ok and when we say competitive balance numbers thats the enrollment correct?
No, that is the adjustment they make for kids who are open enrolled or are from out of your district that are playing football.

For example, Wellston has 165 boys and a CB adjustment of 4. Therefore your final enrollment is established as 169 and you are placed in Division 1-7 based on 169.

The 4 is made up of kids not in your district that are playing football. You can be assigned a 0, +1 or +2 depending on various things I think but I am by no means an expert on the in and outs of the adjustment calculation. However 4 is a low number, Wellston does not have very many kids playing football that are from outside the district or are open enrolled.

Now, conversely Bishop Hartley has 207 boys and a CB adjustment of 97. Therefore their enrollment is 304. Basically that means that they have a high number of their football team from "outside" their "home" district.

You get the drift now?

We won't even get into how many players on Hartley's team are getting "scholarships" or "vouchers", which is a whole other discussion.


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Re: Div III Reg. 11

Post by sapientia et veritas »

Abe Froman wrote: Mon Oct 02, 2017 3:42 pmCompare Ready, Hartley, SVSM Hoban, DeSales, Watterson to the mean average and that variance is pretty close to 800%.
So you beat Watterson by 30. By how much do you beat them if the kids that they stole from other districts aren't playing? 90? 100? What about Ready? How much do you figure on beating them by? I'm thinking 7 TDs minimum. How about Hartley? You were evenly matched in 2014. How bad do their extra invisible players beat you this go around?


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Re: Div III Reg. 11

Post by teach1coach2 »

Just to add, the enrollment number is all the boys grades 9-11 LAST YEAR who were at your school. The CBA (competitive balance adjustment) is just the boys who played football last year who were from outside your district. Some added a 1 and some a 2 to the CBA depending on when they came to your district (I believe those who arrived before 7th grade are 1 pt and the others 2 pts.) That is why the CBA is different for different sports at the same school.


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Re: Div III Reg. 11

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sapientia et veritas wrote: Mon Oct 02, 2017 5:22 pm
Abe Froman wrote: Mon Oct 02, 2017 3:42 pmCompare Ready, Hartley, SVSM Hoban, DeSales, Watterson to the mean average and that variance is pretty close to 800%.
So you beat Watterson by 30. By how much do you beat them if the kids that they stole from other districts aren't playing? 90? 100? What about Ready? How much do you figure on beating them by? I'm thinking 7 TDs minimum. How about Hartley? You were evenly matched in 2014. How bad do their extra invisible players beat you this go around?
I don't care about all the other stuff... however I would take burg by 3 if they played Hartley right now. Lol


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Re: Div III Reg. 11

Post by X8XOHIOLEGENDX7X »

Abe Froman wrote: Mon Oct 02, 2017 4:17 pm
X8XOHIOLEGENDX7X wrote: Mon Oct 02, 2017 3:51 pm Ok and when we say competitive balance numbers thats the enrollment correct?
No, that is the adjustment they make for kids who are open enrolled or are from out of your district that are playing football.

For example, Wellston has 165 boys and a CB adjustment of 4. Therefore your final enrollment is established as 169 and you are placed in Division 1-7 based on 169.

The 4 is made up of kids not in your district that are playing football. You can be assigned a 0, +1 or +2 depending on various things I think but I am by no means an expert on the in and outs of the adjustment calculation. However 4 is a low number, Wellston does not have very many kids playing football that are from outside the district or are open enrolled.

Now, conversely Bishop Hartley has 207 boys and a CB adjustment of 97. Therefore their enrollment is 304. Basically that means that they have a high number of their football team from "outside" their "home" district.

You get the drift now?

We won't even get into how many players on Hartley's team are getting "scholarships" or "vouchers", which is a whole other discussion.
Yea think im starting to get it thnx for helping explain


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Re: Div III Reg. 11

Post by sapientia et veritas »

The CBP is an adjusted enrollment. In football, "Tier 0" gets no adjustment, "Tier 1" gets an adjustment of 1, "Tier 2" gets an adjustment of 2. Private schools are assigned (or pick) a "school district" that represents their attendance zone. A kid who attended a feeder school in the same school system as the designated attendance zone does not count as an extra. A kid who attended a school that has always been a feeder school for the high school but is outside the attendance zone since the Catholic schools don't operate on a one high school per public high school system anymore counts as Tier 1. For some schools, it has little to no effect. For example, Portsmouth Notre Dame gets the vast majority of their kids from Notre Dame Elementary. Rarely, they might get a family from Wellston Sts Peter and Paul. Those kids would get an extra enrollment count of 1. Ironton St Joe kids would also. A kid who goes to PND from a public school counts as 2.

In the metro areas, in order to be "fair" the large city districts are split into imaginary districts that don't actually exist that are centered around a particular high school or schools. For Watterson, they might choose the Whetstone High School zone. It's geographically closest, and it includes two feeder schools - Immaculate Conception and Our Lady Of Peace. All the kids from St Agatha, St Andrew, St Brendan, St Brigid, St Mary Delaware, St Michael, and St Timothy would count as one extra. Public school kids would count as two extra.

Hartley's designated feeder schools are All Saints and St Catherine's. Maybe 35 of the total boys in the school came from there, but only 16 of the football players. The rest of the roster from feeder schools who count as an additional roster count were scattered across St Mary German Village, St Pius, Holy Spirit, and St Matthew. Hartley has partnered with Grace Christian as a feeder school that does school visits for 5-10 years now, but all those kids are Tier 2 per OHSAA.

There are demographic oddities with the Columbus schools.

St Charles draws from the entire city. They don't have any boundaries like the rest of the schools. They are a magnet school for rich and smart kids. They have a colossal endowment and give a ton of scholarships. They have a football CBP of 108 which is a complete joke. No one in their right mind goes there for football, except Bob Jacoby apparently. LOL. They do have serious talent in some other country club sports and usually have a good basketball team. They should be competing in D-VI for football.

Watterson area is mostly middle, upper middle, and upper class kids. They might have one or two voucher kids in any given year. Academically and athletically, they are competing with Upper Arlington, Hilliard, Dublin, and Worthington Schools. They aren't a sports destination school, but field a fine field hockey team. Girls teams are all great. Nearly all their kids come thru the feeder schools. I'm guessing 98% or so. That keeps their CBP number lower. Also, not having a JV team helps their number this year. They have a large endowment and give a bunch of scholarships - but they're all merit scholarships for nerds. Some small fraction of the smart nerds are also good at sports. They should be competing in D-IV for football.

Hartley and Ready are both located in economically depressed areas with middle class suburbs with good public schools on the edges full of people who worked hard to escape the areas where the schools are located. Neither school has any endowment to speak of, and neither draws kids away from the suburbs for sports.

Ready had a decent talent bump when Southwestern City Schools shut down all sports to extort their community for more tax money by that tide is drifting out as evidenced by the Devin Dukes transfer to Grove City. They have a decent number of legacy kids who tend to be athletic, hard-working, and scrappy, but there aren't enough of them to keep the doors open on their own. Ready runs on voucher kids, but most of them are system kids who've been getting vouchers thru grade school also. Take them away and the school closes. Many of these kids - legacy and voucher - count as one extra for the same reasons as Watterson - too many feeder schools located in too many public districts.

Hartley does an annual fundraiser to pay for some merit scholarships, and the winners are nerdly. Admittedly, our fraction of smart nerds who are also good at sports is higher or more male than Watterson's. Hartley has more scholarship money than Ready.

There are two Columbus Public alternative schools close to Hartley - Berwick Alternative and Columbus Prep Academy for Boys. The parents of the kids who attend these schools are more active and engaged and serious about education - basically the kinds of families that typically give the private schools an advantage over public schools who have to take the kids who are effectively checked out in multiple ways. These families have to participate in a lottery system to get their kids into a corresponding selective high school like Eastmoor Academy or Columbus Alternative. Hartley does get these kids, and many of them are eligible for vouchers. For the last 5 years or so, Hartley has had an admissions test to weed out the kids who aren't likely to make it academically, so there are less voucher kids there now than 10 years ago - probably 5-10 in each grade. Prior to the current coach, no one went to Hartley for football. Even now, the school doesn't pull football players away from the big D-1 suburban publics.

I'll give a few examples. Jaden Manley. Older and beefier brother was punt returner at Gahanna; Jaden would likely not have played at all. Two year starter at Hartley and caught a TD pass in state championship game. Zang kids. Great athletes and team / school leaders. Committed Catholics. They live in Pickerington North area. Would have been great wrestlers there. All about 30-40 pounds too light for football though. Tommy Casimir. All state lineman at Hartley for two years. Fast pulling guard. Best case scenario at Pickerington - backup linebacker. Godwin Igwebuike. He opted to go from St Pius to Pickerington since it was free and had D-1 visibility. Three of his St Pius teammates were multi-year starters at Fisher Catholic.

The idea that Hartley is the east side all star football team is a complete joke. Outsiders who believe that just don't know anything about the school. None of these schools pull football players away from the big D-1 suburban publics. Hartley and Ready are now competing in the divisions where they belong.

DeSales area is a mix of lower, middle and upper middle class kids. Their territory covers some rough areas of Columbus, so they always have voucher kids as well. They have a large endowment, and it's been rumored for decades that they have scholarships for sports even though the diocese frowns on that. People have said the same of Hartley after football success. The DeSales school website has the team name in it. They have a separate athletics website. The football team has its own website and radio show. They like sports. St Paul is one of their feeder schools, and it has three classes per grade. That drives down their CBP number. Some schools will game the CBP system by picking one as the official feeder schools as the semi-official football feeder school, but I don't Columbus schools have that luxury. I've heard talk from some who think that the DeSales number is too low. They just had a four-star defensive end become eligible last weekend who transferred in from Olentangy. That has happened on a routine basis for the last 40+ years, so a lot of prospective football recruits see them as the Columbus All Star Sports Academy. They have the lowest GPA requirement in the Diocese for sports participation. When my kids played against them, their athletics facilities were first class, but the school building was a dump. Their eighth grade visit for feeder school kids starts with a creepy sports cult pep rally. They are known throughout the city as having an "active alumni network." They should be playing D-1. In this conversation, they are the only school comparable to Hoban and SVSM.

All these schools have athletic advantages. I don't disagree with that. I just think that looking at the CBP adjustment in isolation is a contrived and artificial way of determining the degree of it. CBP is better than nothing at levelling the playing field, but it has some flaws.


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Re: Div III Reg. 11

Post by sapientia et veritas »

Abe Froman wrote: Mon Oct 02, 2017 4:17 pmWe won't even get into how many players on Hartley's team are getting "scholarships"
Give us a scouting report on the 2021 class:

https://twitter.com/BishopHartley/statu ... 8173867008


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Re: Div III Reg. 11

Post by Abe Froman »

sapientia et veritas wrote: Tue Oct 03, 2017 12:07 pm
All these schools have athletic advantages. I don't disagree with that. I just think that looking at the CBP adjustment in isolation is a contrived and artificial way of determining the degree of it. CBP is better than nothing at levelling the playing field, but it has some flaws.
Great write up above, I cut it short so as not to take up a lot of room.

You are probably right, the CBP may be a good way to judge DeSales and SVSM and Hoban, but perhaps not so much the others. I may have artificially cast too broad of a net with the CBP numbers.

Intersting perspective on each of the Columbus Catholic schools, and my general perception about each was pretty much reinforced by your outline.

Good information. Nice to read.


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Re: Div III Reg. 11

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sapientia et veritas wrote: Tue Oct 03, 2017 12:07 pm The CBP is an adjusted enrollment. In football, "Tier 0" gets no adjustment, "Tier 1" gets an adjustment of 1, "Tier 2" gets an adjustment of 2. Private schools are assigned (or pick) a "school district" that represents their attendance zone. A kid who attended a feeder school in the same school system as the designated attendance zone does not count as an extra. A kid who attended a school that has always been a feeder school for the high school but is outside the attendance zone since the Catholic schools don't operate on a one high school per public high school system anymore counts as Tier 1. For some schools, it has little to no effect. For example, Portsmouth Notre Dame gets the vast majority of their kids from Notre Dame Elementary. Rarely, they might get a family from Wellston Sts Peter and Paul. Those kids would get an extra enrollment count of 1. Ironton St Joe kids would also. A kid who goes to PND from a public school counts as 2.

In the metro areas, in order to be "fair" the large city districts are split into imaginary districts that don't actually exist that are centered around a particular high school or schools. For Watterson, they might choose the Whetstone High School zone. It's geographically closest, and it includes two feeder schools - Immaculate Conception and Our Lady Of Peace. All the kids from St Agatha, St Andrew, St Brendan, St Brigid, St Mary Delaware, St Michael, and St Timothy would count as one extra. Public school kids would count as two extra.

Hartley's designated feeder schools are All Saints and St Catherine's. Maybe 35 of the total boys in the school came from there, but only 16 of the football players. The rest of the roster from feeder schools who count as an additional roster count were scattered across St Mary German Village, St Pius, Holy Spirit, and St Matthew. Hartley has partnered with Grace Christian as a feeder school that does school visits for 5-10 years now, but all those kids are Tier 2 per OHSAA.

There are demographic oddities with the Columbus schools.

St Charles draws from the entire city. They don't have any boundaries like the rest of the schools. They are a magnet school for rich and smart kids. They have a colossal endowment and give a ton of scholarships. They have a football CBP of 108 which is a complete joke. No one in their right mind goes there for football, except Bob Jacoby apparently. LOL. They do have serious talent in some other country club sports and usually have a good basketball team. They should be competing in D-VI for football.

Watterson area is mostly middle, upper middle, and upper class kids. They might have one or two voucher kids in any given year. Academically and athletically, they are competing with Upper Arlington, Hilliard, Dublin, and Worthington Schools. They aren't a sports destination school, but field a fine field hockey team. Girls teams are all great. Nearly all their kids come thru the feeder schools. I'm guessing 98% or so. That keeps their CBP number lower. Also, not having a JV team helps their number this year. They have a large endowment and give a bunch of scholarships - but they're all merit scholarships for nerds. Some small fraction of the smart nerds are also good at sports. They should be competing in D-IV for football.

Hartley and Ready are both located in economically depressed areas with middle class suburbs with good public schools on the edges full of people who worked hard to escape the areas where the schools are located. Neither school has any endowment to speak of, and neither draws kids away from the suburbs for sports.

Ready had a decent talent bump when Southwestern City Schools shut down all sports to extort their community for more tax money by that tide is drifting out as evidenced by the Devin Dukes transfer to Grove City. They have a decent number of legacy kids who tend to be athletic, hard-working, and scrappy, but there aren't enough of them to keep the doors open on their own. Ready runs on voucher kids, but most of them are system kids who've been getting vouchers thru grade school also. Take them away and the school closes. Many of these kids - legacy and voucher - count as one extra for the same reasons as Watterson - too many feeder schools located in too many public districts.

Hartley does an annual fundraiser to pay for some merit scholarships, and the winners are nerdly. Admittedly, our fraction of smart nerds who are also good at sports is higher or more male than Watterson's. Hartley has more scholarship money than Ready.

There are two Columbus Public alternative schools close to Hartley - Berwick Alternative and Columbus Prep Academy for Boys. The parents of the kids who attend these schools are more active and engaged and serious about education - basically the kinds of families that typically give the private schools an advantage over public schools who have to take the kids who are effectively checked out in multiple ways. These families have to participate in a lottery system to get their kids into a corresponding selective high school like Eastmoor Academy or Columbus Alternative. Hartley does get these kids, and many of them are eligible for vouchers. For the last 5 years or so, Hartley has had an admissions test to weed out the kids who aren't likely to make it academically, so there are less voucher kids there now than 10 years ago - probably 5-10 in each grade. Prior to the current coach, no one went to Hartley for football. Even now, the school doesn't pull football players away from the big D-1 suburban publics.

I'll give a few examples. Jaden Manley. Older and beefier brother was punt returner at Gahanna; Jaden would likely not have played at all. Two year starter at Hartley and caught a TD pass in state championship game. Zang kids. Great athletes and team / school leaders. Committed Catholics. They live in Pickerington North area. Would have been great wrestlers there. All about 30-40 pounds too light for football though. Tommy Casimir. All state lineman at Hartley for two years. Fast pulling guard. Best case scenario at Pickerington - backup linebacker. Godwin Igwebuike. He opted to go from St Pius to Pickerington since it was free and had D-1 visibility. Three of his St Pius teammates were multi-year starters at Fisher Catholic.

The idea that Hartley is the east side all star football team is a complete joke. Outsiders who believe that just don't know anything about the school. None of these schools pull football players away from the big D-1 suburban publics. Hartley and Ready are now competing in the divisions where they belong.

DeSales area is a mix of lower, middle and upper middle class kids. Their territory covers some rough areas of Columbus, so they always have voucher kids as well. They have a large endowment, and it's been rumored for decades that they have scholarships for sports even though the diocese frowns on that. People have said the same of Hartley after football success. The DeSales school website has the team name in it. They have a separate athletics website. The football team has its own website and radio show. They like sports. St Paul is one of their feeder schools, and it has three classes per grade. That drives down their CBP number. Some schools will game the CBP system by picking one as the official feeder schools as the semi-official football feeder school, but I don't Columbus schools have that luxury. I've heard talk from some who think that the DeSales number is too low. They just had a four-star defensive end become eligible last weekend who transferred in from Olentangy. That has happened on a routine basis for the last 40+ years, so a lot of prospective football recruits see them as the Columbus All Star Sports Academy. They have the lowest GPA requirement in the Diocese for sports participation. When my kids played against them, their athletics facilities were first class, but the school building was a dump. Their eighth grade visit for feeder school kids starts with a creepy sports cult pep rally. They are known throughout the city as having an "active alumni network." They should be playing D-1. In this conversation, they are the only school comparable to Hoban and SVSM.

All these schools have athletic advantages. I don't disagree with that. I just think that looking at the CBP adjustment in isolation is a contrived and artificial way of determining the degree of it. CBP is better than nothing at levelling the playing field, but it has some flaws.
My niece goes to St. Brendan's and will be going to Watterson next year. This is an awesome breakdown. We watched her cheer at Desales 2 weekends ago and St. Charles this past weekend and you can definitely see the difference in how each of them treats sports vs academics.


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Re: Div III Reg. 11

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"My niece goes to St. Brendan's and will be going to Watterson next year. This is an awesome breakdown. We watched her cheer at Desales 2 weekends ago and St. Charles this past weekend and you can definitely see the difference in how each of them treats sports vs academics."

St Charles has tried to get into the football business and be liked DeSales. Theyve tried everything. They hired an alum, but fired him for not beating Hartley. Then hired DeSales old coach and it has been a train wreck. They have tried to upgrade everything to compete in football. For whatever reason it has resulted in an embarassing disaster for them. They have no choice but to de-emphasize football at this point.

As for Region 11, it probably shakes out like this

1. Marion Franklin 10-0 Wins out
2. Bellefontaine 9-1 Wins out
3. Tri Valley 9-1 Wins out
4. Hartley 8-2 Loses to DeSales
5. Granville 8-2 Loses to Licking Valley
6. DeSales 7-3 Beats Hartley loses to Winton Woonds
7. Jackson 9-1 Wins out
8. Independence 7-2 Loses to MF and WR

New Philly loses to Dover and wont make it at 8-2
Athens loses to NY and is out at 8-2


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Re: Div III Reg. 11

Post by sapientia et veritas »

AHM wrote: Wed Oct 04, 2017 10:19 amThey have tried to upgrade everything to compete in football. For whatever reason it has resulted in an embarassing disaster for them.
Oh, I don't know about that. There's a lot more cheering in the home side bleachers now. LOL.


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Re: Div III Reg. 11

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If DeSales losses to Edgewood friday they have no playoff hope


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Re: Div III Reg. 11

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Pretty fair post from sapientia above.

If DeSales were to lose to Edgewood they would have to beat Hartley and WW. Beating Winton Woods this year is going to be tough, but Winton Woods is capable of an off night, even if they did beat LasSalle. DeSales is on the bubble and everyone in Region 11 is wringing their hands with hope.


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Re: Div III Reg. 11

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doubleplay643 wrote: Wed Oct 04, 2017 2:04 pm Pretty fair post from sapientia above.

If DeSales were to lose to Edgewood they would have to beat Hartley and WW. Beating Winton Woods this year is going to be tough, but Winton Woods is capable of an off night, even if they did beat LasSalle. DeSales is on the bubble and everyone in Region 11 is wringing their hands with hope.
I have feeling WW will put a running clock on DeSales. That running back for WW is a man. I think only a sophomore. Edgewood is winnable for DeSales . Hartley will get a banged up DeSales team. Plus if Hartley wins that game, they are regional champs since no DeSales


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Re: Div III Reg. 11

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Raider6309 wrote: Wed Oct 04, 2017 3:01 pm
doubleplay643 wrote: Wed Oct 04, 2017 2:04 pm Pretty fair post from sapientia above.

If DeSales were to lose to Edgewood they would have to beat Hartley and WW. Beating Winton Woods this year is going to be tough, but Winton Woods is capable of an off night, even if they did beat LasSalle. DeSales is on the bubble and everyone in Region 11 is wringing their hands with hope.
I have feeling WW will put a running clock on DeSales. That running back for WW is a man. I think only a sophomore. Edgewood is winnable for DeSales . Hartley will get a banged up DeSales team. Plus if Hartley wins that game, they are regional champs since no DeSales
I think you got this pretty much spot on, but lol if you read the Yappi posters from Winton Woods they worry every week about a mental breakdown and turnovers and penalties. I think DeSales is the type of team that will hang around WW if they get sloppy.

When Jackson played them last year they were having a great second half of the season, which obviously translated into this year. They are big, fast and strong. The Oates kid is the real deal and they are good across the board.

But if DeSales misses the bubble then Bishop Hartley would be the Region 11 favorite.


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Re: Div III Reg. 11

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I just hate Desales so I have a biased in picking against them


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Re: Div III Reg. 11

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Be hard to do a break down of this region now since a lot of toss up games left


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Re: Div III Reg. 11

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Raider6309 wrote: Wed Oct 04, 2017 3:41 pm I just hate Desales so I have a biased in picking against them
Lol, I am a little biased as well. Have been since 1996, then got over it for a while, then biased again in 2014 and sort of got over it in 2015 with a win over Watterson which wasn't DeSales but it still helped. Actually sapientia helped a little with his post above, it seemed pretty unbiased pointing out both sides. So as of right now I am in a good spot lol. However if Jackson gets in I reserve the right to be biased again if we draw Hartley or DeSales lol.

Played at Hartley's baseball complex this summer with my youngest son's team and their baseball field is adjacent to the football field. Nice facilities and football stadium. So if we get in we may as well draw them and go to their place and play the giant in Week 11, be a good experience and game for us even though we may be a big underdog.

Jackson has tough games in Week 8 and 10 in order to make it into the mix though. Need to win out including not having a let down this week against Trace.


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Re: Div III Reg. 11

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Raider, Is Athens' path in a Jackson loss and you guys winning out?


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Re: Div III Reg. 11

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doubleplay643 wrote: Wed Oct 04, 2017 3:59 pm Raider, Is Athens' path in a Jackson loss and you guys winning out?
Yeah, your 8-2 is in the 18's. Our. 8-2 is in the 16's. We do end with a 9-0 team. Athens has to go 9-1 or out


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