Recruiting Services/Ratings are a joke.

Ed Gennero
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Re: Recruiting Services/Ratings are a joke.

Post by Ed Gennero »

mustard wrote: Wed Sep 21, 2022 10:55 am
Ed Gennero wrote: Wed Sep 21, 2022 10:36 am
XandOs wrote: Wed Sep 21, 2022 10:16 am

If he’s at Ironton. I’d bet the farm he has a D1 offer.
Agree 💯. Novak is easily the best player Jackson has played all year and it’s not close. Not sure about the arm strength , I get it , but watched him drop many passes on a dime 40 yards and over. I guess talent isn’t as important as where you go to high school and who your coach knows. It is all a mystery to me.
I don’t care what high school coach he has. He is an absolute difference maker. No team in this area had a kid that changes their entire teams dynamic. He’s the best prospect south of the Columbus line in my opinion. Ironton has a recruiter on staff fluffing and puffing their kids up. Good for them but this kid is a game changer.

I would take Jake Winters all day and twice on Sunday. In my opinion he’s the best player in the area. No one does more for their team.


Ed Gennero
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Re: Recruiting Services/Ratings are a joke.

Post by Ed Gennero »

JohnDenver wrote: Wed Sep 21, 2022 11:03 am
mustard wrote: Wed Sep 21, 2022 10:55 am
Ed Gennero wrote: Wed Sep 21, 2022 10:36 am

Agree 💯. Novak is easily the best player Jackson has played all year and it’s not close. Not sure about the arm strength , I get it , but watched him drop many passes on a dime 40 yards and over. I guess talent isn’t as important as where you go to high school and who your coach knows. It is all a mystery to me.
I don’t care what high school coach he has. He is an absolute difference maker. No team in this area had a kid that changes their entire teams dynamic. He’s the best prospect south of the Columbus line in my opinion. Ironton has a recruiter on staff fluffing and puffing their kids up. Good for them but this kid is a game changer.
Unfortunately not at the D1A level.

Yes Ironton does do a good job promoting their kids but if these kids don't consistently pan out at the next level, schools won't be too quick on handing out offers in the future.
🛎 🛎 🛎


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Re: Recruiting Services/Ratings are a joke.

Post by XandOs »

Ironton beat them. Perkins was the most dominate player on the field vs. Jackson. They couldn’t guard him with anyone and actually double covered him at end of game. He could have easily had 300 yds receiving by himself that game. Keyes is coming off a bad hamstring injury from what I understand. Didn’t do much of anything all summer or beginning of practices. Felder kid was hurt Jackson game and didn’t really play. And Carter had 17 tackles and two forced fumbles in Jackson game. Ironton played 3 of toughest teams in region in Wheelersburg, Jackson, and Johnson Central and won them all without hitting on all cylinders or having everyone 100%.


ACCBiggz
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Re: Recruiting Services/Ratings are a joke.

Post by ACCBiggz »

There's a lot of misinformation or perhaps just a misguided perception on recruiting rankings, in general. Here is how 247 breaks down their ratings:
247Sports Rating Explanations

Five-stars (98-110 rating): The top 32 players in the country to mirror the 32 first round picks in the NFL Draft. These are 32 players that we believe are the most likely to be drafted in the first round from each recruiting class. The full list of 32 with five-star ratings typically isn’t complete until the final ranking. Any player with a rating of more than 100 is considered a “franchise player” and one that does not come around in every recruiting class.

Four-stars (90-97 rating): These are players that we believe are the most likely to produce college careers that get them drafted. By National Signing Day, this number is typically in the range of 350 prospects, roughly the top 10 percent of prospects in a given class.

Three-stars (80-89 rating): This is where the bulk of college football prospects are found and it incorporates a large range of ability levels, all of whom we consider as possible NFL players long term.

A high three-star (87-89): is considered a player with significant NFL upside who expect to be an impact college football player.

A mid three-star (84-86): is a player that we consider to be a capable starter for a Power Five football team and an impact player at the Group of Five level.

A low three-star (80-83): is a player that we consider to be a potential contributor at a Power Five program but a probable Group of Five starter with impact potential.

Two-stars (70-79 rating): These are prospects that we consider to be FBS-level players with very limited NFL potential.

247Sports Points of Emphasis in Evaluations

Due to our NFL Draft guiding principles, we take some cues as to trends and points of emphasis related to positional value and geographic origination. By our final Top247 and five-star release, we try to meet some standard thresholds for which regions typically produce the most players and which positions tend to get drafted at a higher rate and are valued higher than others.

Due to the extreme variance that characterizes high school football evaluations related to exposure, competition level, developmental stages and numerous other factors, we are mindful of the value of secondary athletic authentication such as track and field data, combine testing numbers and success in multiple sports.

Based on exhaustive analytical studies of NFL Draft results and retroactive looks at NFL Draft picks as high school prospects, we have established position-by-position principles that are most predictive of college football success that we use to inform our position rankings.
On top of this discussion was the discussion of premier programs (Ironton, etc) which they reflect in here saying the extreme variances of exposure. So that is accurate, which is why going out to camps and combines plays a big role in helping kids get seen.

There's been many a 2-star, 3-star to develop into a standout player. The recruiting rankings don't presume to be definitive. And, for what it's worth, their hit rate is far better than their misses. There hasn't been a national champion in the past two decades without a top 10 class, the Blue Chip rating has shown how accurate these evaluations can be. But, again, they're also choosing to go to schools with incredible developmental staffs and massive resources that assist them.

So, no, the ratings aren't a "joke" but they also aren't a guarantee on anything. Nobody suggests they are.

As for Novak himself, and I don't presume to be a scout of any kind, I have never been over the moon about his skills translating to the next level. I think he could be a MAC/G5 type of player, or maybe a smaller P5. He's got decent accuracy and a good frame he could develop into, so he's more of a project which is why some of the bigger schools may skip him when they have a lot more ready prospects available.

But it's ultimately up to him. If he grows into his body, adds more strength, refines his skills... he's got potential. Just like a hundred other QBs in the class. But just as a "recruit" today, I think 2-stars is probably on the money.


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Re: Recruiting Services/Ratings are a joke.

Post by Ed Gennero »

XandOs wrote: Wed Sep 21, 2022 11:32 am Ironton beat them. Perkins was the most dominate player on the field vs. Jackson. They couldn’t guard him with anyone and actually double covered him at end of game. He could have easily had 300 yds receiving by himself that game. Keyes is coming off a bad hamstring injury from what I understand. Didn’t do much of anything all summer or beginning of practices. Felder kid was hurt Jackson game and didn’t really play. And Carter had 17 tackles and two forced fumbles in Jackson game. Ironton played 3 of toughest teams in region in Wheelersburg, Jackson, and Johnson Central and won them all without hitting on all cylinders or having everyone 100%.
If Jackson was allowed to throw second half , would’ve scored 50 points. I know if if If but that wasn’t his call. Winters completely toyed with Ironton for 2 quarters. I’m sure we’ll agree to disagree.


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Re: Recruiting Services/Ratings are a joke.

Post by Ed Gennero »

XandOs wrote: Wed Sep 21, 2022 11:32 am Ironton beat them. Perkins was the most dominate player on the field vs. Jackson. They couldn’t guard him with anyone and actually double covered him at end of game. He could have easily had 300 yds receiving by himself that game. Keyes is coming off a bad hamstring injury from what I understand. Didn’t do much of anything all summer or beginning of practices. Felder kid was hurt Jackson game and didn’t really play. And Carter had 17 tackles and two forced fumbles in Jackson game. Ironton played 3 of toughest teams in region in Wheelersburg, Jackson, and Johnson Central and won them all without hitting on all cylinders or having everyone 100%.
Jackson wasn’t hitting on all cylinders either. Would love to run that one back.


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Re: Recruiting Services/Ratings are a joke.

Post by mustard »

ACCBiggz wrote: Wed Sep 21, 2022 11:46 am There's a lot of misinformation or perhaps just a misguided perception on recruiting rankings, in general. Here is how 247 breaks down their ratings:
247Sports Rating Explanations

Five-stars (98-110 rating): The top 32 players in the country to mirror the 32 first round picks in the NFL Draft. These are 32 players that we believe are the most likely to be drafted in the first round from each recruiting class. The full list of 32 with five-star ratings typically isn’t complete until the final ranking. Any player with a rating of more than 100 is considered a “franchise player” and one that does not come around in every recruiting class.

Four-stars (90-97 rating): These are players that we believe are the most likely to produce college careers that get them drafted. By National Signing Day, this number is typically in the range of 350 prospects, roughly the top 10 percent of prospects in a given class.

Three-stars (80-89 rating): This is where the bulk of college football prospects are found and it incorporates a large range of ability levels, all of whom we consider as possible NFL players long term.

A high three-star (87-89): is considered a player with significant NFL upside who expect to be an impact college football player.

A mid three-star (84-86): is a player that we consider to be a capable starter for a Power Five football team and an impact player at the Group of Five level.

A low three-star (80-83): is a player that we consider to be a potential contributor at a Power Five program but a probable Group of Five starter with impact potential.

Two-stars (70-79 rating): These are prospects that we consider to be FBS-level players with very limited NFL potential.

247Sports Points of Emphasis in Evaluations

Due to our NFL Draft guiding principles, we take some cues as to trends and points of emphasis related to positional value and geographic origination. By our final Top247 and five-star release, we try to meet some standard thresholds for which regions typically produce the most players and which positions tend to get drafted at a higher rate and are valued higher than others.

Due to the extreme variance that characterizes high school football evaluations related to exposure, competition level, developmental stages and numerous other factors, we are mindful of the value of secondary athletic authentication such as track and field data, combine testing numbers and success in multiple sports.

Based on exhaustive analytical studies of NFL Draft results and retroactive looks at NFL Draft picks as high school prospects, we have established position-by-position principles that are most predictive of college football success that we use to inform our position rankings.
On top of this discussion was the discussion of premier programs (Ironton, etc) which they reflect in here saying the extreme variances of exposure. So that is accurate, which is why going out to camps and combines plays a big role in helping kids get seen.

There's been many a 2-star, 3-star to develop into a standout player. The recruiting rankings don't presume to be definitive. And, for what it's worth, their hit rate is far better than their misses. There hasn't been a national champion in the past two decades without a top 10 class, the Blue Chip rating has shown how accurate these evaluations can be. But, again, they're also choosing to go to schools with incredible developmental staffs and massive resources that assist them.

So, no, the ratings aren't a "joke" but they also aren't a guarantee on anything. Nobody suggests they are.

As for Novak himself, and I don't presume to be a scout of any kind, I have never been over the moon about his skills translating to the next level. I think he could be a MAC/G5 type of player, or maybe a smaller P5. He's got decent accuracy and a good frame he could develop into, so he's more of a project which is why some of the bigger schools may skip him when they have a lot more ready prospects available.

But it's ultimately up to him. If he grows into his body, adds more strength, refines his skills... he's got potential. Just like a hundred other QBs in the class. But just as a "recruit" today, I think 2-stars is probably on the money.
Lol. 247 explanation doesnt lend any kind of insight. It’s opinion based. I mean the kid from Ironton was labeled a three star and didn’t even play a down. Sorry but Novak is better than a 2 star. Rankings are jokes. Look how many flameouts happen at Kentucky basketball with their so called 5 star players. Most of them are overrated. I don’t care what your forty is, or your bench, or your size. Can you ball? That’s all that matters. And if Josh Allen didn’t get a chance we wouldn’t have seen how great he is. That’s crazy to think that he would be bagging groceries based on someone’s opinion of value on him.


mustard
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Re: Recruiting Services/Ratings are a joke.

Post by mustard »

I get it. You have to have some barometer but eye test should be number one.


ACCBiggz
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Re: Recruiting Services/Ratings are a joke.

Post by ACCBiggz »

mustard wrote: Wed Sep 21, 2022 12:04 pm Lol. 247 explanation doesnt lend any kind of insight. It’s opinion based.
I mean.... it's all going to be opinion based. But if you can't read their breakdown of how they determine stars and gain insight into the process then that's a you thing. I'm not saying you have to agree with it, because it is subjective, but it's there in black & white and plain to see. Other than that, I can't help you. Especially since you mention the "eye test" and they are clearly evaluating talent based upon their criteria and placing them in categories - so that comment didn't even make any sense as it's exactly what they're doing.


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Re: Recruiting Services/Ratings are a joke.

Post by mustard »

ACCBiggz wrote: Wed Sep 21, 2022 1:37 pm
mustard wrote: Wed Sep 21, 2022 12:04 pm Lol. 247 explanation doesnt lend any kind of insight. It’s opinion based.
I mean.... it's all going to be opinion based. But if you can't read their breakdown of how they determine stars and gain insight into the process then that's a you thing. I'm not saying you have to agree with it, because it is subjective, but it's there in black & white and plain to see. Other than that, I can't help you. Especially since you mention the "eye test" and they are clearly evaluating talent based upon their criteria and placing them in categories - so that comment didn't even make any sense as it's exactly what they're doing.
Thanks for the sarcasm but I read it. And I understand that there has to be something in place but I missed where they said they evaluate film for the intangibles, score attitude, work ethic, look at how they elevate their team. That's the eye test I am referring to. Obvious not to the rankings for Josh Allen, where they completely whiffed, and so far, Drew Novak, sadly.


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Re: Recruiting Services/Ratings are a joke.

Post by eagles73Taylor »

Covid and the transfer portal has had a major impact on recruitment, especially at certain positions. With the Ncaa allowing extra years of eligibility and open transfers, programs have an abundance of choices.


ACCBiggz
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Re: Recruiting Services/Ratings are a joke.

Post by ACCBiggz »

eagles73Taylor wrote: Wed Sep 21, 2022 2:25 pm Covid and the transfer portal has had a major impact on recruitment, especially at certain positions. With the Ncaa allowing extra years of eligibility and open transfers, programs have an abundance of choices.
Absolutely re: transfer portal. On top of that, look back at the last decade of impact QBs for national contenders, tons of Freshman/Sophomores. The biggest programs don't see the value in recruiting a project. Get the best freshman talent who can impact right away or hit the transfer portal for a QB who can come in and make a difference.

With all the changes to the game, it's directly impacted recruiting and how schools invest their resources. There's nothing wrong with project QBs who may take longer to develop, but national contending programs can't waste the spot on them most of the time.

As they develop and mature elsewhere, they can transfer in or just be the next Flacco, Allen, etc. who go to the league from smaller schools as they were allowed to come into their own on their own time. It's not a static thing to be sure.


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Re: Recruiting Services/Ratings are a joke.

Post by greygoose »

Ed Gennero wrote: Wed Sep 21, 2022 11:07 am
mustard wrote: Wed Sep 21, 2022 10:55 am
Ed Gennero wrote: Wed Sep 21, 2022 10:36 am

Agree 💯. Novak is easily the best player Jackson has played all year and it’s not close. Not sure about the arm strength , I get it , but watched him drop many passes on a dime 40 yards and over. I guess talent isn’t as important as where you go to high school and who your coach knows. It is all a mystery to me.
I don’t care what high school coach he has. He is an absolute difference maker. No team in this area had a kid that changes their entire teams dynamic. He’s the best prospect south of the Columbus line in my opinion. Ironton has a recruiter on staff fluffing and puffing their kids up. Good for them but this kid is a game changer.

I would take Jake Winters all day and twice on Sunday. In my opinion he’s the best player in the area. No one does more for their team.
I get what you're saying and obviously you must be wanting to stick up for Winters but you're dead wrong. Winters is a player that makes the Jackson offense a lot less 1-dimensional but with who they've got at RB they could substitute another QB in there and still end up with 7 wins and possibly a round 1 victory. You take Novak off of that team and they're a 3 maybe 4 win team with no playoffs, with him they're region contenders. Winters is a great player in his own right but I'm sorry Novak does WAY more for his team simply looking at the stats will tell you that and that's not even taking into consideration either teams defense.


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Re: Recruiting Services/Ratings are a joke.

Post by greygoose »

mustard wrote: Wed Sep 21, 2022 2:11 pm
ACCBiggz wrote: Wed Sep 21, 2022 1:37 pm
mustard wrote: Wed Sep 21, 2022 12:04 pm Lol. 247 explanation doesnt lend any kind of insight. It’s opinion based.
I mean.... it's all going to be opinion based. But if you can't read their breakdown of how they determine stars and gain insight into the process then that's a you thing. I'm not saying you have to agree with it, because it is subjective, but it's there in black & white and plain to see. Other than that, I can't help you. Especially since you mention the "eye test" and they are clearly evaluating talent based upon their criteria and placing them in categories - so that comment didn't even make any sense as it's exactly what they're doing.
Thanks for the sarcasm but I read it. And I understand that there has to be something in place but I missed where they said they evaluate film for the intangibles, score attitude, work ethic, look at how they elevate their team. That's the eye test I am referring to. Obvious not to the rankings for Josh Allen, where they completely whiffed, and so far, Drew Novak, sadly.
They might say they evaluate film and all of that BS but there's so many players there's simply only so much they can do. I don't buy into the fact they look at all the things you mentioned simply because there's players in the area I've seen in person, who's game tape is average at best, to go along with being lazy on the field yet they still have a higher ranking.


Ed Gennero
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Re: Recruiting Services/Ratings are a joke.

Post by Ed Gennero »

greygoose wrote: Wed Sep 21, 2022 4:04 pm
Ed Gennero wrote: Wed Sep 21, 2022 11:07 am
mustard wrote: Wed Sep 21, 2022 10:55 am

I don’t care what high school coach he has. He is an absolute difference maker. No team in this area had a kid that changes their entire teams dynamic. He’s the best prospect south of the Columbus line in my opinion. Ironton has a recruiter on staff fluffing and puffing their kids up. Good for them but this kid is a game changer.

I would take Jake Winters all day and twice on Sunday. In my opinion he’s the best player in the area. No one does more for their team.
I get what you're saying and obviously you must be wanting to stick up for Winters but you're dead wrong. Winters is a player that makes the Jackson offense a lot less 1-dimensional but with who they've got at RB they could substitute another QB in there and still end up with 7 wins and possibly a round 1 victory. You take Novak off of that team and they're a 3 maybe 4 win team with no playoffs, with him they're region contenders. Winters is a great player in his own right but I'm sorry Novak does WAY more for his team simply looking at the stats will tell you that and that's not even taking into consideration either teams defense.


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Re: Recruiting Services/Ratings are a joke.

Post by THEEE_GAME »

mustard wrote: Tue Sep 20, 2022 6:17 pm Drew Novak is a 2 star? Seriously? Has anyone seen him play? He makes western brown look like a state contender and He just beat out burrows passing yard total in the state and is half way through the season. He’s probably going to be a Josh Allen where he doesn’t fit a “recruiters” mold and come from nowhere to lead an nfl team to the playoffs.
Awfully big "probably." May as well have said he's probably gonna be the next Tom Brady. Burrow has thrown more picks than TDs his 1st two weeks this season.


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Re: Recruiting Services/Ratings are a joke.

Post by THEEE_GAME »

Ed Gennero wrote: Wed Sep 21, 2022 11:51 am
XandOs wrote: Wed Sep 21, 2022 11:32 am Ironton beat them. Perkins was the most dominate player on the field vs. Jackson. They couldn’t guard him with anyone and actually double covered him at end of game. He could have easily had 300 yds receiving by himself that game. Keyes is coming off a bad hamstring injury from what I understand. Didn’t do much of anything all summer or beginning of practices. Felder kid was hurt Jackson game and didn’t really play. And Carter had 17 tackles and two forced fumbles in Jackson game. Ironton played 3 of toughest teams in region in Wheelersburg, Jackson, and Johnson Central and won them all without hitting on all cylinders or having everyone 100%.
Jackson wasn’t hitting on all cylinders either. Would love to run that one back.
Tayden Carpenter outplayed Winters in that game Qb vs Qb and is also outplaying him this season. For what its worth.


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Re: Recruiting Services/Ratings are a joke.

Post by Ed Gennero »

greygoose wrote: Wed Sep 21, 2022 4:04 pm
Ed Gennero wrote: Wed Sep 21, 2022 11:07 am
mustard wrote: Wed Sep 21, 2022 10:55 am

I don’t care what high school coach he has. He is an absolute difference maker. No team in this area had a kid that changes their entire teams dynamic. He’s the best prospect south of the Columbus line in my opinion. Ironton has a recruiter on staff fluffing and puffing their kids up. Good for them but this kid is a game changer.

I would take Jake Winters all day and twice on Sunday. In my opinion he’s the best player in the area. No one does more for their team.
I get what you're saying and obviously you must be wanting to stick up for Winters but you're dead wrong. Winters is a player that makes the Jackson offense a lot less 1-dimensional but with who they've got at RB they could substitute another QB in there and still end up with 7 wins and possibly a round 1 victory. You take Novak off of that team and they're a 3 maybe 4 win team with no playoffs, with him they're region contenders. Winters is a great player in his own right but I'm sorry Novak does WAY more for his team simply looking at the stats will tell you that and that's not even taking into consideration either teams defense.
I get what your saying but you’re dead wrong. Jacob is the heart of the offense, running , throwing , punting , and also the heart of a great defense. Defense is something Jackson takes pride in, while Novak is driving Gatorade, Jacob in banging heads on defense. I know Novak gets to make
easy throws all game long. I get where you’re coming from , but you’re are wrong.


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Re: Recruiting Services/Ratings are a joke.

Post by THEEE_GAME »

ACCBiggz wrote: Wed Sep 21, 2022 1:37 pm
mustard wrote: Wed Sep 21, 2022 12:04 pm Lol. 247 explanation doesnt lend any kind of insight. It’s opinion based.
I mean.... it's all going to be opinion based. But if you can't read their breakdown of how they determine stars and gain insight into the process then that's a you thing. I'm not saying you have to agree with it, because it is subjective, but it's there in black & white and plain to see. Other than that, I can't help you. Especially since you mention the "eye test" and they are clearly evaluating talent based upon their criteria and placing them in categories - so that comment didn't even make any sense as it's exactly what they're doing.
Spot on.


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Re: Recruiting Services/Ratings are a joke.

Post by Ed Gennero »

THEEE_GAME wrote: Wed Sep 21, 2022 5:08 pm
Ed Gennero wrote: Wed Sep 21, 2022 11:51 am
XandOs wrote: Wed Sep 21, 2022 11:32 am Ironton beat them. Perkins was the most dominate player on the field vs. Jackson. They couldn’t guard him with anyone and actually double covered him at end of game. He could have easily had 300 yds receiving by himself that game. Keyes is coming off a bad hamstring injury from what I understand. Didn’t do much of anything all summer or beginning of practices. Felder kid was hurt Jackson game and didn’t really play. And Carter had 17 tackles and two forced fumbles in Jackson game. Ironton played 3 of toughest teams in region in Wheelersburg, Jackson, and Johnson Central and won them all without hitting on all cylinders or having everyone 100%.
Jackson wasn’t hitting on all cylinders either. Would love to run that one back.
Tayden Carpenter outplayed Winters in that game Qb vs Qb and is also outplaying him this season. For what its worth.

That’s your opinion, I disagree. There is no comparison in those two players.


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