Your Opinion - Marines Taking Leaks On Enemy

[F-4 Phantom]

The UCMJ will take care of this.........
Military Justice will prevail

Without a doubt! ROEs dictate our conduct on the battlefield. To maintain some sort of civility, if there is such a thing in battle, the ROEs must be strictly adhered too. If we don't create separation in our conduct with the enemy, the line between good and evil becomes clouded. IMO

[abuck76]

the line between good and evil becomes clouded.

Thank you, I agree...........Honor os Honor, there is no close second.............

[Space Cowboy]

Ive read the same stories you have probably more than you Space. Ive talked to tunnel rats, meducs, and other Vietnam vets. You're right you do anything to stay alive, but what purpose dies pissing on an enemy body serve towards that purpose? They are already dead. Tell me that?
Because Wild thing pissing in a river to say FU is not something thats going to get you a dishonorable discharge.

Ok for those of you that think its ok these guys did that I got a question. What if these guys decided instead of pissing in them to cut their ears off or fingers off as trophies would that be ok? How far would you let them go?

Probably more? Well, I didnt serve in Vietnam but I had 3 older cousins that did. But I was in the post Vietnam era Army that trained soldiers a whole lot different...some of that due to atrocities on both sides.
My dad served in WW2 and Korea.
2uncles that served in WW2
A granddad that served in WW1
A great granddad that served in WW1
There has been atrocities committed in every war, ever fought, by both sides.

Pissing on dead enemy combatants doesnt serve you (or me) any purpose, which is exactly the reason why youre really upset about this. You cant seem to see any reason for it. You seem to think some moral boundary has been breached..., maybe, in this case, it has... but then maybe it hasnt. Was this very shortly after battle...did these Marines know that enemy observers were still in the area? Who knows? But I do know that the stress , brutality, and violence of combat cause people to react in strange and unusual ways. Chances are that these young men have already, by that point witnessed things that will haunt them the rest of their lives. I would even go so far as to say even if this had never come out to the public, in years to come, this act would cause these men many sleepless nights. What did this serve? You aint qualified to answer that question. Men that have been in that kind of Hell on earth are the only ones that can answer that. My point is lets wait to find out all the facts before we start screaming for several lives to be totally destroyed especially when you didnt run out and join up to fight when our soldiers were being beheaded and dragged out into the streets, only to have their corpses mutilated.

This cannot be answered without knowing a case by case situation

[Tigercannon71]

You dont seem to understand theres nothing that can make that act acceptable. I dont care what kind of stress or the situation nothing, nothing can make that act acceptable. Hello, just because our enemies mutilate corpses doesnt mean our guys can do that.
Im upset because there are ignorant people like you who cannot see why thats wrong. I mean you denounce the actions of our enemies yet you want our soldiers to act just like them in our treatment of their dead. Do you not see something wrong with that picture? Do we not go around saying we are better than them yet here you and others are saying yea lets downgrade ourselves to their level? Do you not see the hyprocrisy in that? You dont have to have served to know what is right and what is wrong.

[Space Cowboy]

Wildthing you and I agree on many things, but, respectfully, I must agree with TC.............One does not need to be a vet to understand Honor.......Not the honor we espouse, but the Marine Honor..........God, Country Marines Honor.............As I posted from the Marine Corp website, ........"Marines are held to the highest standards, ethically and morally. Respect for others is essential. Marines are expected to act responsibly in a manner befitting the title they’ve earned."..Nothing more needs to be said by us....The Marines will do what is right................ :12224

Ask any Marine that served in the Pacific durring WW2 if they agree with that assesment.
I will bet you any amount of money that they will tell you that when they found a dead Marine that had been mutilated by the enemy that, over time, they became quite barbaric themselves.
Type in mutilations to Japanese soldiers durring WW2...you will be shocked at what you find.

Youre a Christian man...what did a lowly shepard boy do after he killed the largest enemy of the Israelites?
He chopped his head off, went straight over to the formed enemy line and shook the head in their faces.
That was to instill fear..to let them know that he was the baddest mother in the valley.
We now call it Psyops. Just a fancy name to the same old tactic.

My major point in all of this is that honor and respect are all fine and good,but when an enemy turns to barbarism, desecration, and mutilations, honor and respect go out the window...all you want is their ass on a platter.
Ive been there and just having those feelings will haunt me the rest of my life.
I have witnessed acts of barbarism.
I love to shoot and hunt, yet I occasionally have a strange sense of guilt when I pick up a weapon, even though I believe, in my heart, that the job I did was just and right.
Its easy for us to see this as "inhumane" and disrespectful but there are young lives here that everybody wants to prosecute.
Is it really worth it?

[Space Cowboy]

You dont seem to understand theres nothing that can make that act acceptable. I dont care what kind of stress or the situation nothing, nothing can make that act acceptable. Hello, just because our enemies mutilate corpses doesnt mean our guys can do that.
Im upset because there are ignorant people like you who cannot see why thats wrong. I mean you denounce the actions of our enemies yet you want our soldiers to act just like them in our treatment of their dead. Do you not see something wrong with that picture? Do we not go around saying we are better than them yet here you and others are saying yea lets downgrade ourselves to their level? Do you not see the hyprocrisy in that? You dont have to have served to know what is right and what is wrong.

Sorry that Ive upset you.
Dont ever go into a combat zone then.
Cause if nothing more than my posts and outlook on this upset you, you would be a basketcase after a battle.

[Tigercannon71]

Im not upset actually on the contrary. This is a teaching moment to our school children. It shows how incidents like My Lai and the Holocaust could happen again when a society allows it armed forces to do anything they want without questioning it. Thanks.

[Space Cowboy]

Dont get me wrong on this, this isnt acceptable......to us. But thats because we are here in relative comfort and safety.
Im just pointing out that most people dont have any idea what they will resort to when confronted with daily doses of absolute fear, rage, sorrow, and violence.
I do have some idea of how people deal with this differently. I have seen it firsthand and it was ghastly.

Believe me, most people cannot go through months of this without some sort of psychological outburst .
Not saying its right, but going after these soldiers will solve nothing.
Matter of fact, the enemy has fear and respect for these soldiers....and they are tickled that it is causing such an uproar here.

[abuck76]

Space, again respectfully, Honor is Honor..........I go to Voltaires quote, "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities"..............Honor is Honor.........And I agree with TC, it is a teachable moment................ :12224

[wildthingRV]

If you want a teachable momemnt, read "The Caine Mutiny". It's about a destroyer crew that relieves an "insane" captain. There, I think, is the point I"m trying to make about civilians, combat, the stress of combat, and the importance of letting the military do their thing and handle their own discipline.

[Space Cowboy]

Space, again respectfully, Honor is Honor..........I go to Voltaires quote, "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities"..............Honor is Honor.........And I agree with TC, it is a teachable moment................ :12224

Voltaire had the luxery of never being in combat.
It is a great teaching moment.
Unfortunatly, the correct lesson wont be taught.

The very point you and TC are missing is that the vast majority of soldiers that do commit some sort of desecration/ mutilation, never ever, in their wildest dreams thought that they were capable of such acts.
The lesson that should be taught here is that war should be a last resort because of the hell it puts our youngest and healthiest through.

If you have never been in combat, its real easy to say that you would never do those things. But I can honestly tell you that you would be amazed at just how many consider and/or commit some act that most sane people would call desecration at any other time.

Before anyone else wants to post opinions about this subject, they need to do a little research about what the majority of Marines fron WW2 witnessed and just how they reacted.
Then take the time to ask yourself "What would I do if...."
Put yourself in the Battan death march, or a Green Beret A camp in 1968
Or in the mind of some field medic that just found a pile of arms beloning to all the children that he had just inoculated 4 hours earlier.
Or in my place about 3 decades ago when I found what was left of 2 friends of mine and put the remains into a body bag

[noreply66]

Soldiers see and come across so many thing the others do to us and it can be tempting to do what some feel is to get back at them. 1st reactions can be wrong but at times you need to know what they have gone through. Some times it is like getting back at the bullies. It could be like you feel like doing when someone does thing to your family and friends. Or some of the things we do when we get the chance. If these guys just lost a buddy in a shoot out it makes the mind react differently it could have been worst.They could have dragged them through the town with nothing on so their skin would be removed for everyone to see. They could have chopped their heads off put a cross through their bodies and then put their head down on the cross. They could have let them lay until when they were picked up their skin came off like a boiled chicken.

[Tigercannon71]

That doesnt excuse the behavior though. Thousands of others have been in similar situations and they dont do what those Marines did.

[noreply66]

That doesnt excuse the behavior though. Thousands of others have been in similar situations and they dont do what those Marines did.

and a lot did not get reported either and still doesn't.
I really don't think they mentioned their situation.
I know it doesn't excuse the behavior but at the time behavior isn't thought about.
Too many people will judge the whole because of a few.
When I came back from over seas in 1969 people wouldn't even speak to me as I walked through town to go home--just because of a few.

[Tigercannon71]

That doesnt excuse the behavior though. Thousands of others have been in similar situations and they dont do what those Marines did.

and a lot did not get reported either and still doesn't.
I really don't think they mentioned their situation.
I know it doesn't excuse the behavior but at the time behavior isn't thought about.
Too many people will judge the whole because of a few.
When I came back from over seas in 1969 people wouldn't even speak to me as I walked through town to go home--just because of a few.

Exactly, thats why the few who are found to be doing that like these Marines need to be punished in order to protect the honor and integrity of those who do not lower themselves to this kind of behavior.
Thats one of the lingering wounds from Vietnam is the horrible way we treated our returning servicemen during the war.

[Boonedawg]

Don't really care...I'd have pissed on them too.

[abuck76]

Honor is Honor......These men have no honor.......... :12224

[starbase_318]

As mentioned, the ucmj will handle this accordingly. It is the law of the land.

[kantuckyII]

Honor is Honor......These men have no honor.......... :12224

You might want to rethink that post!

[abuck76]

Why?....There is nothing to rethink...........Honor is Honor........There is an Honorable Discharge and a Dishonorable Discharge........Nothing in between..........The actions by these Marines was dishonorable.......... :12224