Confederate group not allowed to march on Memorial Day

[Tigercannon71]

I read this the other day in the Tribune and I thought Id put it on here to see what the SEOPS world thought of it.

http://www.irontontribune.com/news/2009 ... flag-feud/

Flag Feud
Confederate Veteran’s group upset over parade exclusion

By Benita Heath | The Tribune

Published Friday, May 15, 2009

A behind-the-scenes dispute concerning one organization’s desire to march in the Ironton Lawrence County Memorial Day Parade has left a representative of the group crying foul.

A local chapter of the Sons of Confederate Veterans, a national organization whose stated mission is to preserve the legacy of those who fought for the South in the Civil War, requested a few months ago to march in the parade. It is the longest-running continuous parade honoring that holiday in the country, organized in 1868, and attracting tens of thousands year after year.

On April 17, Sons of Confederate Veterans, 5th Kentucky Infantry Camp 2122, received a letter from Arthur J. Pierson, parade grand marshal, rejecting the group’s request to participate in the parade, without giving any reason why.

“Your parade request for SCV, 5th Kentucky Infantry camp #2122 has been considered and NOT APPROVED,” the letter stated.

Dale Dickerson, 2nd Lt. Commander of the Kentucky Infantry, said the organization wanted to march “to memorialize the service of Confederate veterans,” also noting that there are descendants of these veterans living in the Tri-State.

“I am all for the Memorial Day Parade,” he said. “I feel it is a shame the Confederate veterans are being excluded.”

The local Sons had wanted to march in the parade with a color guard that would feature two Confederate flags – the Kentucky rebel flag and the rebel battle flag— and two motorcycles.

However, it’s those flags with their blue cross bars across a field of red that has put up a red flag of its own with parade organizers.

“I told him the reason was because when he applied for an application they flew flags of the Confederacy,” Pierson said. “That wouldn’t be right to fly the Confederate flag. To me there is only one flag, the United States flag.”

Pierson said he was also concerned about the organization’s wearing the Confederate uniform and other such memorabilia. Pierson said no one from the Sons spoke with the committee in person and that the decision to ban the group was made by Pierson, the committee president, Brent Pyles, and treasurer, Ella McCown.

Calls made to Pyles and McCown at their homes were not returned.

“I think that it was not a good idea in this town,” Pierson said. “We have turned away others for different reasons. It is according to what they want to put in. If it is contradictory, we don’t need that problem. This parade is for veterans.”

The holiday traces its roots back to the post-Civil War era when John Logan, commander of the Grand Army of the Republic, ordered on May 5, 1868, that flowers be placed on the graves of both Union and Confederate soldiers at Arlington National Cemetery.

“It was to honor the soldiers who had died in the Civil War,” said Deborah Marinski, assistant professor of history at Ohio University Southern.

At first, the holiday was called Decoration Day. Later it became known by its current name and was originally observed on May 30. It wasn’t until 1890 that all the northern states recognized Decoration Day and it took the southern states longer to follow suit. In fact, there were southern states that had their own day of remembrance and still do.

“In 1971, Congress passed the National Holiday Act, which basically made Memorial Day the last Monday of May,” Marinski said. “Now it is for any soldier male or female who has died in service of their country. That came after World War I.”

Dickerson’s account of the dispute has been detailed in an informal memo to its members.

“The Camp, along with all our Confederate ancestors and all Confederate solders have been insulted,” the memo states. “The parade includes veterans groups from all major wars, including Union-re-enactors. However there had never been any representation of the Confederacy. This fact alone is a travesty.

“We wish to make a call for all compatriots, friends and companions to join us at the parade. We would like to make a peaceful and tactful showing. We will not press ourselves upon ‘those people,’ who share a different heritage, we only wish to honor our own and our ancestors. However, we hope to turn out in vast numbers to display our southern pride in a gentlemanly manner.”

At issue for the committee is the flag and other Confederate symbols, according to Pierson. Yet Marinski said as a historian she finds nothing inappropriate in those symbols appearing in the parade.

“I personally wouldn’t take offense. It is a matter of history,” she said. “However, a lot do take offense for the recognition of the Confederacy. A lot of people think the Civil War was a war to preserve slavery. It is a part of history. I can see how others would take it as an insensitive measure. I see it as a historian.”

While the committee’s concern focused on not wanting the Confederate flag and dress in the parade, others do not see such memorabilia as entirely objectionable.

Past Grand Marshal Bob Blankenship sees no problem with the organization carrying the flag of the Confederacy or wearing the uniform of that army.

“If it is appropriate, I have no problem with it,” he said. “We know the Civil War was fought and had the blue and gray. The South represented the rebel flag. I have no problem with it. We are honoring all veterans, it’s not a matter of race or religion.”

However, longtime Ironton resident and former Common Pleas Judge Richard Walton can understand how one aspect of the Sons’ dress could distress others.

“If they want to march as Sons of the Confederacy (in uniform) because we are remembering the soldiers not the causes,” he said.

But carrying the flag is another matter because Walton views the flag as representing a cause, not simply soldiers who died in an American conflict.

“I would be highly offended,” Walton said.

However, marching without the Confederate flag is a non-negotiable issue as far as Dickerson is concerned.

“Would you ask me as a veteran of the Beirut-Lebanon War to march in the parade without the U.S. flag?” he said.

[Tigercannon71]

Myself I think the parade committee is doing these men a grave injustice. These guys are representing American veterans and to exclude them is taking away from what memorial day is about.

[noreply66]

Myself I think the parade committee is doing these men a grave injustice. These guys are representing American veterans and to exclude them is taking away from what memorial day is about.

Agree

[Der_Kommissar1968]

I think Judge Walton has it right here. I always thought that in the context of the Civil War, the south was the enemy. That's just me though. I understand that the Civil War involved more complex issues than just slavery, but that certainly was a big part of the South's cause. Why in the world anyone would want to perpetuate that cause by carrying around a Confederate flag that only reminds people of what the south stood for is way beyond me.

And TC, I'd also disagree with your assessment that these guys are simply representing American veterans. They are representing a group of states who felt so strongly about the institution of slavery that they were willing to secede from the nation and fight a war over it. Why should the organizers of the parade let anyone celebrate that?

[85inside]

I think Judge Walton has it right here. I always thought that in the context of the Civil War, the south was the enemy. That's just me though. I understand that the Civil War involved more complex issues than just slavery, but that certainly was a big part of the South's cause. Why in the world anyone would want to perpetuate that cause by carrying around a Confederate flag that only reminds people of what the south stood for is way beyond me.

And TC, I'd also disagree with your assessment that these guys are simply representing American veterans. They are representing a group of states who felt so strongly about the institution of slavery that they were willing to secede from the nation and fight a war over it. Why should the organizers of the parade let anyone celebrate that?

Great post. i have to admit, I was leaning the other way on this issue, until i read your post. Thanks for making me think this morning.

[Tigercannon71]

I think Judge Walton has it right here. I always thought that in the context of the Civil War, the south was the enemy. That's just me though. I understand that the Civil War involved more complex issues than just slavery, but that certainly was a big part of the South's cause. Why in the world anyone would want to perpetuate that cause by carrying around a Confederate flag that only reminds people of what the south stood for is way beyond me.

And TC, I'd also disagree with your assessment that these guys are simply representing American veterans. They are representing a group of states who felt so strongly about the institution of slavery that they were willing to secede from the nation and fight a war over it. Why should the organizers of the parade let anyone celebrate that?

Economics was a big cause of the Civil War. It just so happens that slavery was part of that economic system. To say the Confederate flag represents slavery is a cop out and shows not a full meaning of the flag nor the war itself. 90% of the common foot soldiers in the CSA did not own slaves. They were fighting for what they percieved to be a government intrusion upon their rights as defined by Jefferson. By carrying that flag they arent promoting slavery they are promoting the fact that their relatives helped to bring about the United States as it is today. Back before the Civil War the United States was referred to as either the Union or "These" United States. That just means a collection of states. We werent really a nation we were a collection of individual states. After the war is when we truly became a nation. After the war when talking about the country it was referred to The United States which is all as one. So those ancestors of the veterans deserve to march in the parade under their flag.

You say they are our enemy. If General Chamberlain or General Grant felt that way after Appotmattox then we might still be fighting a civil war. It was those two generals treated the surrendering Confederates not as enemies, but as the Americans they were. They didnt gloat in their defeat. They gave them all the respect in the world and opened their arms to them and said lets work together to heal the wound of this country. Besides all that the government actually passed a law stating that the Confederate soldiers and sailors are to be given all rights given to any veteran. So if the US government says they are to be treated as veterans just like their union counterparts then why shouldnt they be allowed to march.

[Orange and Brown]

I think Judge Walton has it right here. I always thought that in the context of the Civil War, the south was the enemy. That's just me though. I understand that the Civil War involved more complex issues than just slavery, but that certainly was a big part of the South's cause. Why in the world anyone would want to perpetuate that cause by carrying around a Confederate flag that only reminds people of what the south stood for is way beyond me.

And TC, I'd also disagree with your assessment that these guys are simply representing American veterans. They are representing a group of states who felt so strongly about the institution of slavery that they were willing to secede from the nation and fight a war over it. Why should the organizers of the parade let anyone celebrate that?

Economics was a big cause of the Civil War. It just so happens that slavery was part of that economic system. To say the Confederate flag represents slavery is a cop out and shows not a full meaning of the flag nor the war itself. 90% of the common foot soldiers in the CSA did not own slaves. They were fighting for what they percieved to be a government intrusion upon their rights as defined by Jefferson. By carrying that flag they arent promoting slavery they are promoting the fact that their relatives helped to bring about the United States as it is today. Back before the Civil War the United States was referred to as either the Union or "These" United States. That just means a collection of states. We werent really a nation we were a collection of individual states. After the war is when we truly became a nation. After the war when talking about the country it was referred to The United States which is all as one. So those ancestors of the veterans deserve to march in the parade under their flag.

You say they are our enemy. If General Chamberlain or General Grant felt that way after Appotmattox then we might still be fighting a civil war. It was those two generals treated the surrendering Confederates not as enemies, but as the Americans they were. They didnt gloat in their defeat. They gave them all the respect in the world and opened their arms to them and said lets work together to heal the wound of this country. Besides all that the government actually passed a law stating that the Confederate soldiers and sailors are to be given all rights given to any veteran. So if the US government says they are to be treated as veterans just like their union counterparts then why shouldnt they be allowed to march.

Most of the men who fought for the south could not care less about slavery. I am really really happy that the north won the war, but those men should be honered to. I know that there are issues with the confederate flag and such, but they should be able to march in that parade if they want to. Lets see what happens if the KKK applies to be in the parade and gets denied. I got money that says if it went to the courts the courts would say that they could be in the parade. But hey lets not let those slave lovin southerners get honered.

[Der_Kommissar1968]

At the risk of turning this into a political forum issue, let's be honest about a couple of things. Many German soldiers in Hitler's Waffen-SS were appalled by the treatment that the Jews received under Hitler. Many were forced into service. Now before you go crazy asking why I'm comparing the south's rebels to German nazis, I'm not. It's an analogy. So, like the average Confederate soldier who may have not owned any slaves, many German regular army soldiers had no beef with Jews. But I doubt we'd welcome with open arms a group who wants to carry the Nazi flag in the parade.

Also TC, I admitted that it might be simplistic to say that the Civil War was fought over slavery. Yes, there were economic issues the southern states were concerned about, but let's be honest about that too. The southern economy was propped up by slavery. The other element that many southerners feared was the idea of giving equal rights to blacks. If you don't think this scared the bejezus out of them, I'd say you're very wrong. You start giving blacks equal rights, then there goes the plantations, and without the free labor, the southern economy falls.

But I'm not even thinking about this in context of the Ironton parade. I'm thinking more about the black Ironton family, the mom and dad, sitting on the curb watching the parade go by, and their little boy or girl asking mom and dad what that flag is all about and them having to explain all of this. If I were them, it would make me want to get up and leave. Refusing this group entry into the parade isn't a nod to political correctness. It goes well beyond that. It's about giving other peoples' ancestors who were victimized by the system the exact same respect that these confederate ancestors demand. After all, I think they deserve it.

[The Instructor]

At the risk of turning this into a political forum issue, let's be honest about a couple of things. Many German soldiers in Hitler's Waffen-SS were appalled by the treatment that the Jews received under Hitler. Many were forced into service. Now before you go crazy asking why I'm comparing the south's rebels to German nazis, I'm not. It's an analogy. So, like the average Confederate soldier who may have not owned any slaves, many German regular army soldiers had no beef with Jews. But I doubt we'd welcome with open arms a group who wants to carry the Nazi flag in the parade.

Also TC, I admitted that it might be simplistic to say that the Civil War was fought over slavery. Yes, there were economic issues the southern states were concerned about, but let's be honest about that too. The southern economy was propped up by slavery. The other element that many southerners feared was the idea of giving equal rights to blacks. If you don't think this scared the bejezus out of them, I'd say you're very wrong. You start giving blacks equal rights, then there goes the plantations, and without the free labor, the southern economy falls.

But I'm not even thinking about this in context of the Ironton parade. I'm thinking more about the black Ironton family, the mom and dad, sitting on the curb watching the parade go by, and their little boy or girl asking mom and dad what that flag is all about and them having to explain all of this. If I were them, it would make me want to get up and leave. Refusing this group entry into the parade isn't a nod to political correctness. It goes well beyond that. It's about giving other peoples' ancestors who were victimized by the system the exact same respect that these confederate ancestors demand. After all, I think they deserve it.

Great Post!

[seofan_via_dublin]

Instead of using the confederate battle flag, the blue cross with 13 stars "two to many" on a red field
the flag that most people relate to the KKK, rednecks, and racist white people, why not use the
flag of the confederacy, and the Kentucky Rebel flag.

I think they should be able to be represented. In fact the confederate argument of states rights vs a tyranical
overbearing federal government couldn't be more relavent today.

[The Instructor]

I am surprised an issue such as this hasn't come up before.

I am not a parade person (I know I shouldn't say that too loud in Ironton) but this parade brings a great deal of joy to many people.

I hope this doesn't turn into a big controversy.

[Tigercannon71]

At the risk of turning this into a political forum issue, let's be honest about a couple of things. Many German soldiers in Hitler's Waffen-SS were appalled by the treatment that the Jews received under Hitler. Many were forced into service. Now before you go crazy asking why I'm comparing the south's rebels to German nazis, I'm not. It's an analogy. So, like the average Confederate soldier who may have not owned any slaves, many German regular army soldiers had no beef with Jews. But I doubt we'd welcome with open arms a group who wants to carry the Nazi flag in the parade.

Also TC, I admitted that it might be simplistic to say that the Civil War was fought over slavery. Yes, there were economic issues the southern states were concerned about, but let's be honest about that too. The southern economy was propped up by slavery. The other element that many southerners feared was the idea of giving equal rights to blacks. If you don't think this scared the bejezus out of them, I'd say you're very wrong. You start giving blacks equal rights, then there goes the plantations, and without the free labor, the southern economy falls.

But I'm not even thinking about this in context of the Ironton parade. I'm thinking more about the black Ironton family, the mom and dad, sitting on the curb watching the parade go by, and their little boy or girl asking mom and dad what that flag is all about and them having to explain all of this. If I were them, it would make me want to get up and leave. Refusing this group entry into the parade isn't a nod to political correctness. It goes well beyond that. It's about giving other peoples' ancestors who were victimized by the system the exact same respect that these confederate ancestors demand. After all, I think they deserve it.

Your analogy is way off the mark.

You want to be honest southerners werent the only ones that felt that way about giving the blacks rights. Many Northerners fellt the same way the southerners did about giving blacks equal rights. Lets be honest not everybody in the North were fervent abolitionist. They could care less about the plight of the slaves. They just felt that the South had no right to leave the Union.

Yes not letting this group into the parade is a nod to political correctness. In your scenario that is what is called a teaching opportunity.

These guys want to march under the flag of their ancestors. Under that flag some of the greatest American heroes fought and died. They want to show respect for their ancestors by doing this, but arent being allowed because of ignorance.

[Orange and Brown]

They teach us about all these great southern generals in school but won't let them be honered on mem. Day???

[vids4ckcrash]

Whatcha wanta bet that they would allow illegal border jumpers walk up the street with a Mexican, flag protesting our lack of Spanish speaking facilities?

And which is a greater problem in America today? Those who lost a terrible war expressing the love of their heritage or the illegals swamping our schools and medical vacilities?

I hope the pendulum on political correctness swings the other way soon. And it will when the general public gets fed up with the very loud few controling the lives of the majority.

[caglewis]

"Memorial Day" was instituted shortly after the Civil War to honor all soldiers, all Americans, who had served their country and lost their lives.
I totally agree with that. What I have a problem with is "glorifying" the whole secessionist cause as something noble, heroic, and "patriotic". They caused and then LOST a treasonous, hurtful WAR which tore this country apart and cost thousands of lives of young men, and civilians, too who had no voice or choice in serving/participating. That flag isn't in the least glorious, and doesn't deserve "waving"; but the lives and sacrifice it cost certainly deserve remembrance.
Slave owners in the 1860's said that dark-skinned people were inherently inferior and enslaved them; by the 1960's dark-skinned people were being drafted as soldiers and used on the front lines in Vietnam because they were considered the most "expendable", but maybe not allowed to vote at all in some of those "secessionist" states, or date who or live where they wanted. Hispanic Americans are in a similar position now. Good for service - demanded and required - without much reciprocity in return. ALL Americans of every color, ethnicity, religion, and political persuasion are allowed to "protest", argue, and publically express their opinions. Whether or not I agree, and however much I hate their concept, they're still allowed to SAY it. And ALL soldiers who have ever served and put their lives on the line [by force or by choice] to protect and defend our rights deserve honor and respect.

[Tigercannon71]

I dont think they are glorifying the Cause, but instead glorifying those men that fought under that flag. Men that we learn about in history like Robert E. Lee, Stonewall Jackson, Jeb Stuart, and even a man like Nathan Bedford Forrest. They are glorifying men like the Stonewall Brigade, those men who made Picketts Charge, and the thousands of others that died in that war. Those men despite being on the losing side were no less heroic or patriotic than the men who wore blue. They deserve to be honored just as much as the men they fought.

[The Instructor]

"Memorial Day" was instituted shortly after the Civil War to honor all soldiers, all Americans, who had served their country and lost their lives.
I totally agree with that. What I have a problem with is "glorifying" the whole secessionist cause as something noble, heroic, and "patriotic". They caused and then LOST a treasonous, hurtful WAR which tore this country apart and cost thousands of lives of young men, and civilians, too who had no voice or choice in serving/participating. That flag isn't in the least glorious, and doesn't deserve "waving"; but the lives and sacrifice it cost certainly deserve remembrance.
Slave owners in the 1860's said that dark-skinned people were inherently inferior and enslaved them; by the 1960's dark-skinned people were being drafted as soldiers and used on the front lines in Vietnam because they were considered the most "expendable", but maybe not allowed to vote at all in some of those "secessionist" states, or date who or live where they wanted. Hispanic Americans are in a similar position now. Good for service - demanded and required - without much reciprocity in return. ALL Americans of every color, ethnicity, religion, and political persuasion are allowed to "protest", argue, and publically express their opinions. Whether or not I agree, and however much I hate their concept, they're still allowed to SAY it. And ALL soldiers who have ever served and put their lives on the line [by force or by choice] to protect and defend our rights deserve honor and respect.

I respect your post but disagree with the last sentence.

The soldiers from the South did nothing to defend our rights. They may deserve honor and respect because of the terrible situation they were in but not for fighting for us.

[Space Cowboy]

I think Judge Walton has it right here. I always thought that in the context of the Civil War, the south was the enemy. That's just me though. I understand that the Civil War involved more complex issues than just slavery, but that certainly was a big part of the South's cause. Why in the world anyone would want to perpetuate that cause by carrying around a Confederate flag that only reminds people of what the south stood for is way beyond me.

And TC, I'd also disagree with your assessment that these guys are simply representing American veterans. They are representing a group of states who felt so strongly about the institution of slavery that they were willing to secede from the nation and fight a war over it. Why should the organizers of the parade let anyone celebrate that?

You arent totally correct in your assesment. The issue of slavery was, in actuality, a very small reason for the civil war. For lack of a better way to put it, it was the proverbial straw that broke the camels back. You need to study political history and industrial history to truely understand why the civil war happened. You are assuming that the vast amount of soldiers that fought for the confederacy believed that slavery was OK. That is very far from the truth. They were still Americans and they fought and many died for their beliefs. They did not take the idea of separation from the north candidly. Even General Lee debated for quite some time before he accepted command of the southern army. Both sides had their just reasons for some of their beliefs and both sides had their guilts. BTW, The man that got the idea for Memorial Day, got it from watching the wives of dead confederate soldiers putting flowers on their graves. Many soldiers from WWII meet at battlefields with former enemy combatants to remember the lost, maybe we shoul take a lesson in that and remember the past so we dont make the same misstakes.

[Space Cowboy]

"Memorial Day" was instituted shortly after the Civil War to honor all soldiers, all Americans, who had served their country and lost their lives.
I totally agree with that. What I have a problem with is "glorifying" the whole secessionist cause as something noble, heroic, and "patriotic". They caused and then LOST a treasonous, hurtful WAR which tore this country apart and cost thousands of lives of young men, and civilians, too who had no voice or choice in serving/participating. That flag isn't in the least glorious, and doesn't deserve "waving"; but the lives and sacrifice it cost certainly deserve remembrance.
Slave owners in the 1860's said that dark-skinned people were inherently inferior and enslaved them; by the 1960's dark-skinned people were being drafted as soldiers and used on the front lines in Vietnam because they were considered the most "expendable", but maybe not allowed to vote at all in some of those "secessionist" states, or date who or live where they wanted. Hispanic Americans are in a similar position now. Good for service - demanded and required - without much reciprocity in return. ALL Americans of every color, ethnicity, religion, and political persuasion are allowed to "protest", argue, and publically express their opinions. Whether or not I agree, and however much I hate their concept, they're still allowed to SAY it. And ALL soldiers who have ever served and put their lives on the line [by force or by choice] to protect and defend our rights deserve honor and respect.

Understand most of what you are saying but to accuse the south for being treasonous is not really accurate in this case. If you want to say that, then the way the north was dealing with them, before the war was just as treasonous.

[Space Cowboy]

At the risk of turning this into a political forum issue, let's be honest about a couple of things. Many German soldiers in Hitler's Waffen-SS were appalled by the treatment that the Jews received under Hitler. Many were forced into service. Now before you go crazy asking why I'm comparing the south's rebels to German nazis, I'm not. It's an analogy. So, like the average Confederate soldier who may have not owned any slaves, many German regular army soldiers had no beef with Jews. But I doubt we'd welcome with open arms a group who wants to carry the Nazi flag in the parade.

Also TC, I admitted that it might be simplistic to say that the Civil War was fought over slavery. Yes, there were economic issues the southern states were concerned about, but let's be honest about that too. The southern economy was propped up by slavery. The other element that many southerners feared was the idea of giving equal rights to blacks. If you don't think this scared the bejezus out of them, I'd say you're very wrong. You start giving blacks equal rights, then there goes the plantations, and without the free labor, the southern economy falls.

But I'm not even thinking about this in context of the Ironton parade. I'm thinking more about the black Ironton family, the mom and dad, sitting on the curb watching the parade go by, and their little boy or girl asking mom and dad what that flag is all about and them having to explain all of this. If I were them, it would make me want to get up and leave. Refusing this group entry into the parade isn't a nod to political correctness. It goes well beyond that. It's about giving other peoples' ancestors who were victimized by the system the exact same respect that these confederate ancestors demand. After all, I think they deserve it.

What history book have you been reading out of? I know this is geting off the subject but belonging to the Waffen SS was almost akin to a blood oath. Those men knew beforehand exactly what Hitler had planned for the Jews. They were sadistical murderers and every single one of them knew going into it what they were getting themselves into.