Western pike 63 Clay 60 ... 12-18-09

[my2cents]

I am no fan of Ward but he did have a winning program. His downfall was 5 hour practices. He knew the game and he knew how to get the most out of each players ability. Coach T's problem is he thinks every kid can do it all. Look at Whbg's team. Barrick assigns a roll to each kid and they fulfill it, or they don't play.
As for Ward, he has turned around Coal Grove. For what that's worth since they were so bad before he got here.

[Waterdog]

Coach Ward is not going to come back and Clay School board will not get rid of Trainer unless the parents or boys demand it. It is hard to tell a nice person that they stink as a coach, so what is this team suppose to do? They have tried playing his way for 3 years now and he even admits he doesnt know what to do, like with the time out at the end of the game at Western.
Coach T. lacks the skills for fundamental HS ball. Sorry.. WWH, I have to agree with Burg grad and the others that it is time to make a change.

[Ironman92]

You guys can argue all you want...but there is nothing wrong with cleaning bathrooms at McDonald's.

It's far better to be cleaning toilets for a living opposed to trashing coaches o the internet.

[Waterdog]

Ironman, I see your point. I suppose it will not change things by talking about it on the site, although it is interesting seeing If others feel the same way and mostly, they do.

[claypantherfan]

I think it is about time to make a change at Clay but I dont see it happening till at least the end of the year unless they get turned around since I dont see it happening in the middle of the season

[my2cents]

Ironman, if you can't talk about a coach on an internet chat room about HS basketball, where can you talk about it? I have an idea, let's send him up to Ironton or for that matter, any school who wants him. They have had about a 3 week break to work on whatever problems they were having, so let's wait and see what changes come January. A press break would be nice, since he admits we can't handle other teams presses. A full court press that produces results wouldn't hurt (something besides the man to man press) , since Clay only produces about 8 TO's a game while commiting 28 TO's themsleves (has been this way since he came). Utilize the big men more would help, since they are shooting 60% while the 3 pt shooters are shooting 20% (1-14 in the Western game that they lost by 3 points). Some zone defense when we are obviously up against a quicker/shorter team who are killing us on lay ups and picks (he dosn't believe in zone). There are many problems with Clay's basketball for the past three years, it's time to fix them.

[WWH]

You guys can argue all you want...but there is nothing wrong with cleaning bathrooms at McDonald's.

It's far better to be cleaning toilets for a living opposed to trashing coaches o the internet.

Amen !!!

[WWH]

Coach Ward is not going to come back and Clay School board will not get rid of Trainer unless the parents or boys demand it. It is hard to tell a nice person that they stink as a coach, so what is this team suppose to do? They have tried playing his way for 3 years now and he even admits he doesnt know what to do, like with the time out at the end of the game at Western.
Coach T. lacks the skills for fundamental HS ball. Sorry.. WWH, I have to agree with Burg grad and the others that it is time to make a change.

They have not played his way. They won't do the work. Most of the junior and senior class didn't lift or work on their skills all summer. Showing up for summer league isn't good enough. Ask Trainer what happen at the Shootout this summer. Three kids showed up, one starter. The money was not refunded and it caused Coach Trainer alot of professional embarrassment. Coach Trainer has the younger kids winning. I guess you can't teach an old dog new tricks. Fire him if you like, but you'll be hiring someone else in a couple of years again !!!

[WWH]

Ironman, if you can't talk about a coach on an internet chat room about HS basketball, where can you talk about it? I have an idea, let's send him up to Ironton or for that matter, any school who wants him. They have had about a 3 week break to work on whatever problems they were having, so let's wait and see what changes come January. A press break would be nice, since he admits we can't handle other teams presses. A full court press that produces results wouldn't hurt (something besides the man to man press) , since Clay only produces about 8 TO's a game while commiting 28 TO's themsleves (has been this way since he came). Utilize the big men more would help, since they are shooting 60% while the 3 pt shooters are shooting 20% (1-14 in the Western game that they lost by 3 points). Some zone defense when we are obviously up against a quicker/shorter team who are killing us on lay ups and picks (he dosn't believe in zone). There are many problems with Clay's basketball for the past three years, it's time to fix them.

I heard there was a job opening at ESPN !!! Knowing what to do and getting kids to do it or two differant things. If they lack skills and won't do the work, tell me what to do now genius !!!

[Out of Bounds]

I would agree that changing a few things would maybe make Clay a little better and it's easy to sit in the stands and chastise, but I honestly don't see all the talent you guys say you have. I'm not on here to bash the kids, but really see clay as a bottom tier team in the SOC this year. JMO.

[Waterdog]

WWH, have you been to the games for the last 3 years for Clay?

[claypantherfan]

I would agree that changing a few things would maybe make Clay a little better and it's easy to sit in the stands and chastise, but I honestly don't see all the talent you guys say you have. I'm not on here to bash the kids, but really see clay as a bottom tier team in the SOC this year. JMO.

I dont see how you say they dont have talent when they returned 2 of the leading rebounders last year and their leading scorers from last year and the whole team is pretty athletic

[Jake Lane]

I have noticed one thing about the team, which may also explain the coach's reason for playing a help-man defense. They don't box out well at all. Just imagine if they played zone and tried to rebound out of that. Of course they don't defend well full court in a man press, but I disagree on the athletic statement some. They are fast, but the footwork is not quick enough to be able to change direction, except for Valentine and Bussler. Playing the help-man allows for a zone like coverage, but cuts down a little on the change of direction an individual has to make without being helped out on a switch. I won't try to make excuses for some of the "questionable" stuff the coach does, but I think it might be a better fit for the Panthers to stay in man defense. The press break is absolutely a work in progress, I hope it gets better quick!

[my2cents]

Ironman, if you can't talk about a coach on an internet chat room about HS basketball, where can you talk about it? I have an idea, let's send him up to Ironton or for that matter, any school who wants him. They have had about a 3 week break to work on whatever problems they were having, so let's wait and see what changes come January. A press break would be nice, since he admits we can't handle other teams presses. A full court press that produces results wouldn't hurt (something besides the man to man press) , since Clay only produces about 8 TO's a game while commiting 28 TO's themsleves (has been this way since he came). Utilize the big men more would help, since they are shooting 60% while the 3 pt shooters are shooting 20% (1-14 in the Western game that they lost by 3 points). Some zone defense when we are obviously up against a quicker/shorter team who are killing us on lay ups and picks (he dosn't believe in zone). There are many problems with Clay's basketball for the past three years, it's time to fix them.

I heard there was a job opening at ESPN !!! Knowing what to do and getting kids to do it or two differant things. If they lack skills and won't do the work, tell me what to do now genius !!!

WWH, your the one on here defending the Coach. I don't know what your relationship is to him, but you are in a minority in his defense. Maybe you coach a SOC I rival team (they love him). Several people have pointed out the many flaws of the Coaches plays, or lack of plays.. Out of Bound saying there is no talent is a joke, these boys could go into a gym without a coach and play just about any team in the SOC I and win. Why didn't they show up for the summer shoot out, I don't know? The coach has to earn the respect of his players and I think the players don't feel like they can compete with the system they are forced to run. The younger boys are winning under Coach King, who are not playing the same system that coach T runs. I actually saw Coach King call 2 timeouts from the bench the other night to avoid a 10 second back court call and a 5 second inbounds call. Something Coach T never does (and cost them wins).
I'll make you a challenge, since your such a fan of the Coach. Attend the next few games and then lets debate what was right and wrong with Clay's plays, or you could just stick to your sophomoric commments about bathroom cleaning. That's so helpful.

[Ironman92]

What did Ward do without Cam?

I guess it is a chat site and you may do whatever you want...just be careful I'll advise.

[my2cents]

I have noticed one thing about the team, which may also explain the coach's reason for playing a help-man defense. They don't box out well at all. Just imagine if they played zone and tried to rebound out of that. Of course they don't defend well full court in a man press, but I disagree on the athletic statement some. They are fast, but the footwork is not quick enough to be able to change direction, except for Valentine and Bussler. Playing the help-man allows for a zone like coverage, but cuts down a little on the change of direction an individual has to make without being helped out on a switch. I won't try to make excuses for some of the "questionable" stuff the coach does, but I think it might be a better fit for the Panthers to stay in man defense. The press break is absolutely a work in progress, I hope it gets better quick!

A three year work in progress that still isnt' working. I am told by former coaches he just doesn't recongnize the presses being run against him and get the boys in positions to break them. Boxing out is a problem and needs to be taught.
As for the man to man, of course there are many times that will be the best defense, but when you are up against a much quicker and much smaller team and giving up back door cut lay-ups because you can't keep up with the guy your covering, then it's time to switch out to zone. To say "we never play zone" is just wrong. This year the man to man press gave up 5 uncontested lay-up to SW's Queen boy on full court inbound passes to him. Last year I watched a team go up 22 - 0 on 11 straight lay-ups from a double set of screens. Our players couldn't figure out how to get thru and switch, so we gave up lay-up to a team that we had a major height advantage. Some teams never shoot the ball more than 10 feet from the basket on us and yet they don't have a player over 6'-2" tall.
I'll give the coach a break if he has made some changes over the holiday break but it Clay comes out in January running the same ineffective style of ball they have for the past 2 years, people are going to start getting upset.
And nothing against the younger boys who are winning, but the talent level is not as high as the older boys, they are winning because of the style of ball that Coach King has them playing. That's not suggesting that he needs to coach the Varsity, but it is suggesting that Coach T needs to change his style of play or give it up.

[my2cents]

What did Ward do without Cam?

I guess it is a chat site and you may do whatever you want...just be careful I'll advise.

Ummmm, what is your point? Got anymore advice?

2004: Randy Ward 15-7
2005: Randy Ward 18-5
2006: Randy Ward 11-11
2007: Randy Ward 13-10
2008: Jack Trainer 2-19
2009: Jack Trainer 6-15
2010: Jack Trainer 1-4

Past coaches with at least 2 season winning percentages.
Arch Justus (394-169), 70%
Dick McCleese (6-35), 13%
Carl Wolfe (59-72), 45%
Todd Warnock (40-46), 47%
Don Gibson (21-23) 48%
Mark Trapp (23-21), 52%
Randy Ward (57-33). 63%
Jack Trainer (8-34) 19%

[cbaseball33]

Coach Ward is not going to come back and Clay School board will not get rid of Trainer unless the parents or boys demand it. It is hard to tell a nice person that they stink as a coach, so what is this team suppose to do? They have tried playing his way for 3 years now and he even admits he doesnt know what to do, like with the time out at the end of the game at Western.
Coach T. lacks the skills for fundamental HS ball. Sorry.. WWH, I have to agree with Burg grad and the others that it is time to make a change.

They have not played his way. They won't do the work. Most of the junior and senior class didn't lift or work on their skills all summer. Showing up for summer league isn't good enough. Ask Trainer what happen at the Shootout this summer. Three kids showed up, one starter. The money was not refunded and it caused Coach Trainer alot of professional embarrassment. Coach Trainer has the younger kids winning. I guess you can't teach an old dog new tricks. Fire him if you like, but you'll be hiring someone else in a couple of years again !!!

Well when you got kids in other sports its hard to get to these things in the summer?

[Burg_Grad_77]

If you check out this list of some of the past coaches(I only went back as far as Arch Justice), after a coach had at least 2 losing seasons in a row at Clay he was gone. Whether they stepped down or were fired, it looks like 2 years and they were gone. Some even after 1 year, so I don't see why anyone would be surprised that people think Trainer should go. He had 2 losing seasons and is working on his 3rd if things don't changed dramatically in the next few weeks, so just how long do you give him.


1959: Arch Justice 19-4
1960: Arch Justice 12-11
1961: Arch Justice 18-5
1962: Arch Justice 14-10
1963: Arch Justice 12-10
1964: Arch Justice 14-7
1965: Arch Justice 18-5
1966: Arch Justice 23-2
1967: Arch Justice 20-4
1968: Arch Justice 24-3
1969: Arch Justice 26-2
1970: Arch Justice 19-5
1971: Arch Justice 13-11
1972: Arch Justice 15-8
1973: Arch Justice 12-9
1974: Arch Justice 17-4
1975: Arch Justice 10-10
1976: Arch Justice 11-8
1977: Arch Justice 9-9
1978: Arch Justice 10-8
1979: Arch Justice 15-6
1980: Arch Justice 15-7
1981: Arch Justice 15-9
1982: Arch Justice 17-5
1983: Arch Justice 16-7
1984: David Blevens 1-21
1985: Dick McCleese 4-17
1986: Dick McCleese 2-19
1987: Ben Murnahan 3-18
1988: Randy Reeder 6-15
1989: Randy Reeder 6-15
1990: Carl Wolfe 8-13
1991: Carl Wolfe 6-15
1992: Carl Wolfe 12-9
1993: Carl Wofle 19-5
1994: Carl Wolfe 9-14
1995: Carl Wolfe 5-16
1996: Todd Warnock 13-8
1997: Todd Warnock 14-8
1998: Todd Warnock 8-14
1999: Todd Warnock 5-16
2000: Don Gibson 4-17
2001: Don Gibson 17-6
2002: Mark Trapp 17-6
2003: Mark Trapp 6-15
2004: Randy Ward 15-7
2005: Randy Ward 18-5
2006: Randy Ward 11-11
2007: Randy Ward 13-10
2008: Jack Trainer 2-19
2009: Jack Trainer 6-15

[my2cents]

The last two changes before Trainer were more political than results. My understanding is Trapp stepped down after being asked to re-apply for the job, so they could look at new applicants, being Ward, who was offering to come with Thoroughman in tow. Ward "retired" due to pressure from the board for complaints on his 5 hour practices and his policy of not playing any other sports.