Warren 72 Jackson 41 a final ...

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pfloyd
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Warren 72 Jackson 41 a final ...

Post by pfloyd »

Warren 72
Jackson 41 a final


... Jackson entered the sectional final after hanging a 20 spot on Vinton County 48-28 while the Warriors of Coach Maddox beat a game Waverly Tigers squad at the Warren Coliseum 56-38 ... in the days leading up to the sectional final at Logan High School's Jim Myers Gymnasium the build up was the Jackson Ironmen's ability to attack the paint vs the VC bigs resulting both to points in the paint (30) and fouls on the Viking post players ... defense, toughness in the paint - the lone JHS senior Boston Campbell knocked down 18 pts to set the offensive tone for the Jackson W & the opportunity to take on the Warren Warriors in Logan where for many, many years the winner punched their ticket to the Round House on Richland - the Convocation Center ... tonight the opportunity once again was there for the taking, the winner going to Basketball :30 & district play ...

... Coach Maddox, like Coach Morrow entered this one leaving no stone unturned in coming up with a strategy that would give his team the best opportunity to survive and advance ... as the favorite to advance entering the game, it was imperative for the Warriors to strike first, not let the Ironmen think they had a chance to win ... the same "punch in the mouth" that the Ironmen did vs Vinton County in taking the wind out the oppositions sails ... Warren jumped out early and never looked back ... Connor Barry opened the first quarter onslaught as the soph. shooting guard drained a deep three pointer ... the made bucket allowed Warren get into their 1-2-2 full court press after scoring ... the pressure forced the first of 5 Ironmen turnovers in the opening quarter - jr. PG/shooting guard Julian Stadelman took the first JHS turnover to the house for 2pts in transition ... Barry followed with his 2nd first quarter triple that rattled in for 3pts/6pts in the qtr ... more pressure, more turnovers as Jacob Sealey with his 45% three point shooting avg. on the season knocked down Warren's 3rd trey in the qtr for an 11-0 lead ... 3-3 from behind the 3pt line ... the 11-0 run was halted when Bhodi Wolford scored on a drive to the rim to take the lid off of the rim at the JHS end of the floor ... 11-2 with 5:38 on the clock ... Jackson countered defensively as the Ironmen forced 2 WHS turnovers and taking them back for transition buckets - 1 by Wolford (4pts) and the other by sr. Boston Campbell ... Campbell followed up the strip & score with a bucket in the paint (4pts), the final points in the quarter was Stephen Jenkins' 1/2 from the FT line ... 9 pts for the Ironmen showed to be not nearly enough as Warren added 11 more pts following the JHS time out ... an inbounds 2pter by 6-7 Trent Taylor ... a Chase Lupardus putback for 2 pts ... Stadelman added 2/2 from the charity stripe ... the smooth shooting Sealey drained his 2nd 3 pointer in the period - the 4th three pointer out of 4 tries for the Warriors ... a second inbounds play resulting in Warrior 2pts -this one by Connor Barry ended the big scoring quarter for the Warriors that had the Ironmen in the rearview mirror playing catchup ... Warren 22 Jackson 9 after 1 ... the Warriors could not have written a better script - 4/4 from behind the arc, forced 5 JHS turnovers ... all 5 starters dented the napkin stat sheet with points ... the biggest scoring damage was done by the "role players" Sealey 6pts/Barry 8pts .. the big 2 of Trent Taylor & Julian Stadelman played foul free in the opening quarter ... If you follow SEO hoops, you know that the Jackson Ironmen under Coach Morrow give 100% no matter the score, they don't rollover after taking a punch - they punch back ... after taking the 1st quarter of "Warren near perfection" they turned the tables on Warren by forcing 4 turnovers to at least take some steam out of the WHS attack ... Coach Morrow got scoring from all of the starting sophomores - Charlie Woodard drained a 3 /Jenkins with 2pts on a drive to the rim / Ryan Seimetz with a midrange jumper to go with 2/2 from the line/ Bhodi Wolford added 4/4 from the FT line while the sr leader Campbell took a WHS miscue back for a transition bucket ... the Jackson sophs kept pace with the Warriors in the 2nd ... Stadelman showed all of his skills as the jr. hit a midrange jumper/ took his man off the dribble for 2 at the rim and finished with a floater in the paint for 6pts in the period ... Jacob Sealey continued to be a scoring factor adding his 3rd trey of the game and a drive that finished for 2 off the backboard ... a clear message the Warriors sent in this one through the opening 2 qtrs was that they are more than just the Big 2 in Stadelman/Taylor as Tyson Cochran came in off the bench to add the Warriors 6th triple of the half (6/8 from 3) ... in the end - Warren outscored JHS 16-15 in the 2nd to increase the lead going into halftime ... Warren 38 Jackson 24 at the half ... when playing any team from behind you have to be able to get points and slow down your opponent ... you need to be able to attack weaknesses ... on this night Warren had no weakness - scoring came from all 5 starters , big points from the role players and the bench ... any attempt at a run was stopped immediately by the offense's ability to answer inside/outside ... the scoring didn't rely on the Big 2 for Warren as anyone not named Stadelman/Taylor totaled 24 pts while the 2 usual point getters 14 pts through 2 quarters ... any thoughts of a comeback were stymied by the Warren D - WHS gave up only 3 fgs in the 3rd coming out of the locker room, turned the Ironmen over 4 times/11 in the first 3 periods ... big scorers for JHS - Jenkins 0 pts in the 3rd (3 in the game so far)/ Boston Campbell 0 pts in the 3rd/6pts thru 3 ... Woodard picked up 2 fgs in the paint 4pts/7 for the game ... Bhodi Wolford with a trey 3pts/11 thru 3 ... 7 pts for the Ironmen ... the 3rd quarter was all Julian Stadelman for the Warriors as Stadelman had 9pts (2 transition buckets/a 3ball/a drive to the hole), Trent Taylor being a focal point of the Ironmen defense still managed a pair of buckets in the paint 4pts/8 pts thru 3 ... the only other scoring for WHS in the 3rd was Sealey's 4th trey on the evening /14pts ... Warren got major separation with the 16-7 quarter advantage ... Warren 54 Jackson 31 after 3 ... if you have a thoroughbred you run him, Julian Stadelman is "HIM" , give him the ball he WILL get you points as the smooth jr dropped 6 more points on drives to the rim - 25 points for the game/20 points of that were in the paint at the rim ... the Warren TEAM shot upwards of 60% from the floor on the game as the TEAM hit 20 fgs in the paint/40 pts as a team ... good things happen when you put the ball up and it finds the bottom of the net, the odds of good things happening increase greatly when those shots are in the paint/at the rim ... Trent Taylor picked up points 9&10 , 11&12 in the paint ... Hayden Wells got the Warriors 3rd bucket on inbounds plays for the night to go with a putback bucket by the 6-5 reserve post player ... off the bench in the closing minutes Hudson Elzey and Ian Gardner each added a transition bucket ... Warren with 18 fourth quarter points had more than enough to keep their foot on the Ironmen throats as Jackson could counter with but 10 points in the 4th ... Wolford/Jax Carroll/ CJ Crabtree each with 2 pt fgs, the remaining scoring for JHS came at the FT line as Jenkins went 1/2, Seimetz 2/2 and Eli Ray 1/2 to finish the Ironmen's season and their chance of getting to the Convo in 2024 ... Warren 72 Jackson 41 a final ...

Pfloyd's official "UN-official" Napkin Stats - Jackson

Scoring ... Bhodi Wolford 13, Charlie Woodard 7, Ryan Seimetz 6, Boston Campbell 6, Stephen Jenkins 4, Jax Carroll 2, CJ Crabtree 2, Eli Ray 1
3 Pointers ... 2/18 ... Charlie Woodard 1, Bhodi Seimetz 1
FTs ... 10/12
PnP ... 10fgs/ 20 points in the paint
PnT ... 3 fgs/ 6 points in transition
Pbk ... 0

... great season by the youngsters of Coach Morrow, 7 sophomores/4 freshmen/ 1 upperclassman in sr. Boston Campbell - outstanding ... with the youth on the team the future in the Apple City is nothing but bright ... always a pleasure getting to talk to Coach Morrow before the game, nothing changed in my respect for what Coach Morrow does/has done with Ironmen hoops in his tenure - outstanding ... he coached up his team the entire 32 minutes - if coach isn't giving up , TEAM isn't giving up ... Jackson will be an Elite 8 team in the preseason rankings for 2024-25 ... pfloyd made it on the radio !!! Jackson sports has THE BEST radio team in all of SEO ... always good to see/talk with Dan Morrow/ Dan Dobbins/Pete Wilson - I believe this team has been together doing Jackson sports radio for 37 years for Dan Morrow and 40 years of Dan Dobbins/Pete Wilson ...

Pfloyd's official "UN-official" Napkin Stats - Warren

Scoring ... Julian Stadelman 25, Jacob Sealey 14, Trent Taylor 12, Connor Barry 8, Hayden Wells 4, Tyson Cochran 3, Chase Lupradus 2, Hudson Elzey 2, Ian Gardner 2

3 Pointers ... 8/13 ... Jacon Sealey 4, Connor Barry 2, Julian Stadelman 1, Tyson Cochran 1
FTs ... 4/4
TOs ... 13
PnP .... 20 fgs/ 40 points in the paint
PnT ... 6 fgs/ 12 points in transition
Pbk ... 1 fg/ 2points on putback buckets

... On the Big Stage, sectional 'ship , with a trip to the Convo and district play on the line the Warriors played a nearly flawless game - flawless in the sense they took away any momentum that the Ironmen had coming in from their W vs Vinton County - Warren was the aggressor, Warren with the hot shooting from the field grabbed the lead from the outset and never looked back ... coming into the contest Warren had it's Big 2 in Stadelman/Taylor but to be an elite team you HAVE TO HAVE that 3rd guy who can be counted on to put up double digit numbers scoring ... tonight a couple players threw their hats in the ring as THAT 3rd guy - Jacob Sealey & Connor Barry ... both can score from the perimeter - an area that is/was a big time NEED for this Warrior team ... Sealey is the best 3 point shooter % wise on the team but he only looked to put the ball up 1 to 2 times per game - tonight no hesitation, he put up his shots ... if Warren has that 3rd scorer with the potential for 4 ... good things will happen ... as always the defense travels - any thoughts of JHS getting inside were thwarted early on/ the backside help & rotations - outstanding , forced the Ironmen to have to score on the perimeter ... if you told me Jackson would put up 18 threes - I would have said Warren was the winner ... Trent Taylor played an outstanding game as he never took himself off the court due to foul trouble ... with Stadelman and Taylor on the floor all offensive options are on the table ... I have to give props to the best defensive player on the court for the Warriors - Jacob Sealey - he gets the toughest defensive draws as tonight he had Boston Campbell the biggest part of the night, Sealey held the senior post player to 6 points/I'm not sure if he gave up those 6 pts ... Sealey is an outstanding defender vs players his own size up to handling the 6-8 Alex Kendall of Marietta - tough as nails ... next up either Unioto or Logan Elm in the opening district semi at the Convo next week ... best of luck to the Warriors coming out of the Logan Sectional ...


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Re: Warren 72 Jackson 41 a final ...

Post by Hookshot »

pfloyd wrote: Sat Feb 24, 2024 1:50 am Warren 72
Jackson 41 a final


... Jackson entered the sectional final after hanging a 20 spot on Vinton County 48-28 while the Warriors of Coach Maddox beat a game Waverly Tigers squad at the Warren Coliseum 56-38 ... in the days leading up to the sectional final at Logan High School's Jim Myers Gymnasium the build up was the Jackson Ironmen's ability to attack the paint vs the VC bigs resulting both to points in the paint (30) and fouls on the Viking post players ... defense, toughness in the paint - the lone JHS senior Boston Campbell knocked down 18 pts to set the offensive tone for the Jackson W & the opportunity to take on the Warren Warriors in Logan where for many, many years the winner punched their ticket to the Round House on Richland - the Convocation Center ... tonight the opportunity once again was there for the taking, the winner going to Basketball :30 & district play ...

... Coach Maddox, like Coach Morrow entered this one leaving no stone unturned in coming up with a strategy that would give his team the best opportunity to survive and advance ... as the favorite to advance entering the game, it was imperative for the Warriors to strike first, not let the Ironmen think they had a chance to win ... the same "punch in the mouth" that the Ironmen did vs Vinton County in taking the wind out the oppositions sails ... Warren jumped out early and never looked back ... Connor Barry opened the first quarter onslaught as the soph. shooting guard drained a deep three pointer ... the made bucket allowed Warren get into their 1-2-2 full court press after scoring ... the pressure forced the first of 5 Ironmen turnovers in the opening quarter - jr. PG/shooting guard Julian Stadelman took the first JHS turnover to the house for 2pts in transition ... Barry followed with his 2nd first quarter triple that rattled in for 3pts/6pts in the qtr ... more pressure, more turnovers as Jacob Sealey with his 45% three point shooting avg. on the season knocked down Warren's 3rd trey in the qtr for an 11-0 lead ... 3-3 from behind the 3pt line ... the 11-0 run was halted when Bhodi Wolford scored on a drive to the rim to take the lid off of the rim at the JHS end of the floor ... 11-2 with 5:38 on the clock ... Jackson countered defensively as the Ironmen forced 2 WHS turnovers and taking them back for transition buckets - 1 by Wolford (4pts) and the other by sr. Boston Campbell ... Campbell followed up the strip & score with a bucket in the paint (4pts), the final points in the quarter was Stephen Jenkins' 1/2 from the FT line ... 9 pts for the Ironmen showed to be not nearly enough as Warren added 11 more pts following the JHS time out ... an inbounds 2pter by 6-7 Trent Taylor ... a Chase Lupardus putback for 2 pts ... Stadelman added 2/2 from the charity stripe ... the smooth shooting Sealey drained his 2nd 3 pointer in the period - the 4th three pointer out of 4 tries for the Warriors ... a second inbounds play resulting in Warrior 2pts -this one by Connor Barry ended the big scoring quarter for the Warriors that had the Ironmen in the rearview mirror playing catchup ... Warren 22 Jackson 9 after 1 ... the Warriors could not have written a better script - 4/4 from behind the arc, forced 5 JHS turnovers ... all 5 starters dented the napkin stat sheet with points ... the biggest scoring damage was done by the "role players" Sealey 6pts/Barry 8pts .. the big 2 of Trent Taylor & Julian Stadelman played foul free in the opening quarter ... If you follow SEO hoops, you know that the Jackson Ironmen under Coach Morrow give 100% no matter the score, they don't rollover after taking a punch - they punch back ... after taking the 1st quarter of "Warren near perfection" they turned the tables on Warren by forcing 4 turnovers to at least take some steam out of the WHS attack ... Coach Morrow got scoring from all of the starting sophomores - Charlie Woodard drained a 3 /Jenkins with 2pts on a drive to the rim / Ryan Seimetz with a midrange jumper to go with 2/2 from the line/ Bhodi Wolford added 4/4 from the FT line while the sr leader Campbell took a WHS miscue back for a transition bucket ... the Jackson sophs kept pace with the Warriors in the 2nd ... Stadelman showed all of his skills as the jr. hit a midrange jumper/ took his man off the dribble for 2 at the rim and finished with a floater in the paint for 6pts in the period ... Jacob Sealey continued to be a scoring factor adding his 3rd trey of the game and a drive that finished for 2 off the backboard ... a clear message the Warriors sent in this one through the opening 2 qtrs was that they are more than just the Big 2 in Stadelman/Taylor as Tyson Cochran came in off the bench to add the Warriors 6th triple of the half (6/8 from 3) ... in the end - Warren outscored JHS 16-15 in the 2nd to increase the lead going into halftime ... Warren 38 Jackson 24 at the half ... when playing any team from behind you have to be able to get points and slow down your opponent ... you need to be able to attack weaknesses ... on this night Warren had no weakness - scoring came from all 5 starters , big points from the role players and the bench ... any attempt at a run was stopped immediately by the offense's ability to answer inside/outside ... the scoring didn't rely on the Big 2 for Warren as anyone not named Stadelman/Taylor totaled 24 pts while the 2 usual point getters 14 pts through 2 quarters ... any thoughts of a comeback were stymied by the Warren D - WHS gave up only 3 fgs in the 3rd coming out of the locker room, turned the Ironmen over 4 times/11 in the first 3 periods ... big scorers for JHS - Jenkins 0 pts in the 3rd (3 in the game so far)/ Boston Campbell 0 pts in the 3rd/6pts thru 3 ... Woodard picked up 2 fgs in the paint 4pts/7 for the game ... Bhodi Wolford with a trey 3pts/11 thru 3 ... 7 pts for the Ironmen ... the 3rd quarter was all Julian Stadelman for the Warriors as Stadelman had 9pts (2 transition buckets/a 3ball/a drive to the hole), Trent Taylor being a focal point of the Ironmen defense still managed a pair of buckets in the paint 4pts/8 pts thru 3 ... the only other scoring for WHS in the 3rd was Sealey's 4th trey on the evening /14pts ... Warren got major separation with the 16-7 quarter advantage ... Warren 54 Jackson 31 after 3 ... if you have a thoroughbred you run him, Julian Stadelman is "HIM" , give him the ball he WILL get you points as the smooth jr dropped 6 more points on drives to the rim - 25 points for the game/20 points of that were in the paint at the rim ... the Warren TEAM shot upwards of 60% from the floor on the game as the TEAM hit 20 fgs in the paint/40 pts as a team ... good things happen when you put the ball up and it finds the bottom of the net, the odds of good things happening increase greatly when those shots are in the paint/at the rim ... Trent Taylor picked up points 9&10 , 11&12 in the paint ... Hayden Wells got the Warriors 3rd bucket on inbounds plays for the night to go with a putback bucket by the 6-5 reserve post player ... off the bench in the closing minutes Hudson Elzey and Ian Gardner each added a transition bucket ... Warren with 18 fourth quarter points had more than enough to keep their foot on the Ironmen throats as Jackson could counter with but 10 points in the 4th ... Wolford/Jax Carroll/ CJ Crabtree each with 2 pt fgs, the remaining scoring for JHS came at the FT line as Jenkins went 1/2, Seimetz 2/2 and Eli Ray 1/2 to finish the Ironmen's season and their chance of getting to the Convo in 2024 ... Warren 72 Jackson 41 a final ...

Pfloyd's official "UN-official" Napkin Stats - Jackson

Scoring ... Bhodi Wolford 13, Charlie Woodard 7, Ryan Seimetz 6, Boston Campbell 6, Stephen Jenkins 4, Jax Carroll 2, CJ Crabtree 2, Eli Ray 1
3 Pointers ... 2/18 ... Charlie Woodard 1, Bhodi Seimetz 1
FTs ... 10/12
PnP ... 10fgs/ 20 points in the paint
PnT ... 3 fgs/ 6 points in transition
Pbk ... 0

... great season by the youngsters of Coach Morrow, 7 sophomores/4 freshmen/ 1 upperclassman in sr. Boston Campbell - outstanding ... with the youth on the team the future in the Apple City is nothing but bright ... always a pleasure getting to talk to Coach Morrow before the game, nothing changed in my respect for what Coach Morrow does/has done with Ironmen hoops in his tenure - outstanding ... he coached up his team the entire 32 minutes - if coach isn't giving up , TEAM isn't giving up ... Jackson will be an Elite 8 team in the preseason rankings for 2024-25 ... pfloyd made it on the radio !!! Jackson sports has THE BEST radio team in all of SEO ... always good to see/talk with Dan Morrow/ Dan Dobbins/Pete Wilson - I believe this team has been together doing Jackson sports radio for 37 years for Dan Morrow and 40 years of Dan Dobbins/Pete Wilson ...

Pfloyd's official "UN-official" Napkin Stats - Warren

Scoring ... Julian Stadelman 25, Jacob Sealey 14, Trent Taylor 12, Connor Barry 8, Hayden Wells 4, Tyson Cochran 3, Chase Lupradus 2, Hudson Elzey 2, Ian Gardner 2

3 Pointers ... 8/13 ... Jacon Sealey 4, Connor Barry 2, Julian Stadelman 1, Tyson Cochran 1
FTs ... 4/4
TOs ... 13
PnP .... 20 fgs/ 40 points in the paint
PnT ... 6 fgs/ 12 points in transition
Pbk ... 1 fg/ 2points on putback buckets

... On the Big Stage, sectional 'ship , with a trip to the Convo and district play on the line the Warriors played a nearly flawless game - flawless in the sense they took away any momentum that the Ironmen had coming in from their W vs Vinton County - Warren was the aggressor, Warren with the hot shooting from the field grabbed the lead from the outset and never looked back ... coming into the contest Warren had it's Big 2 in Stadelman/Taylor but to be an elite team you HAVE TO HAVE that 3rd guy who can be counted on to put up double digit numbers scoring ... tonight a couple players threw their hats in the ring as THAT 3rd guy - Jacob Sealey & Connor Barry ... both can score from the perimeter - an area that is/was a big time NEED for this Warrior team ... Sealey is the best 3 point shooter % wise on the team but he only looked to put the ball up 1 to 2 times per game - tonight no hesitation, he put up his shots ... if Warren has that 3rd scorer with the potential for 4 ... good things will happen ... as always the defense travels - any thoughts of JHS getting inside were thwarted early on/ the backside help & rotations - outstanding , forced the Ironmen to have to score on the perimeter ... if you told me Jackson would put up 18 threes - I would have said Warren was the winner ... Trent Taylor played an outstanding game as he never took himself off the court due to foul trouble ... with Stadelman and Taylor on the floor all offensive options are on the table ... I have to give props to the best defensive player on the court for the Warriors - Jacob Sealey - he gets the toughest defensive draws as tonight he had Boston Campbell the biggest part of the night, Sealey held the senior post player to 6 points/I'm not sure if he gave up those 6 pts ... Sealey is an outstanding defender vs players his own size up to handling the 6-8 Alex Kendall of Marietta - tough as nails ... next up either Unioto or Logan Elm in the opening district semi at the Convo next week ... best of luck to the Warriors coming out of the Logan Sectional ...
Not surprised of course that Warren would win this one but the margin was unexpected. When you start a game making literally everything including something like six 3's in a row, it is very hard for an opponent to get untracked. Credit to Warren for going 8-fo-13 for the game from 3 and benefiting from the Ironmen at 2-for-18 from deep. Those numbers of course are abnormal for both teams. I don't regard this margin due to coaching strategy so much as just excellent shooting and otherwise stellar performance from Warren (and as you noted keeping Taylor and Stadelman on the floor). I agree about Jackson's future -- a lot to look forward to.


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Re: Warren 72 Jackson 41 a final ...

Post by Geronimo »

Very young Jackson team 👍


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Re: Warren 72 Jackson 41 a final ...

Post by pfloyd »

Geronimo wrote: Sat Feb 24, 2024 8:09 am Very young Jackson team 👍
.. I talked to Coach Morrow briefly after he was on the Jackson radio post game show ... told him that his boys did great, they LEARNED what it is going to take moving on ... Coach said the boys will regroup and look to keep improving ... Coach Morrow - class act - as he never had to stop and/or say anything to me after the tough loss ... but he did, took the time ... the best thing about sophomores is they turn into juniors - the Ironmen have a boat load of sophs! with talent that they don't even know they have BUT will learn in the offseason ... there's nothing big things in the future for this Jackson squad ...


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Re: Warren 72 Jackson 41 a final ...

Post by SouthEast Hoops Fan »

pfloyd wrote: Sat Feb 24, 2024 1:00 pm
Geronimo wrote: Sat Feb 24, 2024 8:09 am Very young Jackson team 👍
.. I talked to Coach Morrow briefly after he was on the Jackson radio post game show ... told him that his boys did great, they LEARNED what it is going to take moving on ... Coach said the boys will regroup and look to keep improving ... Coach Morrow - class act - as he never had to stop and/or say anything to me after the tough loss ... but he did, took the time ... the best thing about sophomores is they turn into juniors - the Ironmen have a boat load of sophs! with talent that they don't even know they have BUT will learn in the offseason ... there's nothing big things in the future for this Jackson squad ...
What division will Jackson be in next season?


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pfloyd
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Re: Warren 72 Jackson 41 a final ...

Post by pfloyd »

SouthEast Hoops Fan wrote: Sat Feb 24, 2024 1:21 pm
pfloyd wrote: Sat Feb 24, 2024 1:00 pm
Geronimo wrote: Sat Feb 24, 2024 8:09 am Very young Jackson team 👍
.. I talked to Coach Morrow briefly after he was on the Jackson radio post game show ... told him that his boys did great, they LEARNED what it is going to take moving on ... Coach said the boys will regroup and look to keep improving ... Coach Morrow - class act - as he never had to stop and/or say anything to me after the tough loss ... but he did, took the time ... the best thing about sophomores is they turn into juniors - the Ironmen have a boat load of sophs! with talent that they don't even know they have BUT will learn in the offseason ... there's nothing big things in the future for this Jackson squad ...
What division will Jackson be in next season?
D4 same as Warren ...


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