fan behavior???

[clevelandbrowns#1]

When did POOR fan behavior become acceptable to others?? Booing an official for a bad call is part of the game, rooting for your kid to do well is part of the game. We who officiate and put a lot of time and effort into managing a basketball game will toss ANY spectator/fan/parent/administrator/superintendent/police officer who CURSES a player/official/coach or anyone else!!!!! When/what year did it become acceptable for people to show up @ sporting events and act like this??? Why do other fans tolerate it?? Why would other fans not get up and move away from those who act like this and leave them there to act like that by themselves?? This behavior should not be accepted by anyone, anywhere. Stand up people and not allow these things to happen!!! Fan behavior @ games is at an all time low and your kids are also watching!!!

[ManitouDan]

amen brother. Clay had a male adult fan warned by an official last night and a female showed very poor judgement and zero class in loudly berating our scorekeeper from the opposite side of the gymm. His sin --having the score off by one point. Two bad apples were souring a very nice bushel. MD

[eagles73Taylor]

[quote="ClevelandBrowns#1"]When did POOR fan behavior become acceptable to others?? When/what year did it become acceptable for people to show up @ sporting events and act like this???quote]

You really dont think this just started any time soon do you? Coach Scott Legg compiled the history of Piketon basketball and he was telling me a bunch of stories about incidents that happened way back when. In the 20's during the county tourney, a man was shot outside the gym following a game. In the 50's a glass pop bottle was thrown at a free throw shooter trying to make the winning free throw. A man spilled his whiskey bottle while walking onto the floor to protest a call in the 50's. In the 70's a fight broke out between P. East and Piketon following a game. In the 70's a fan yelled into the refs locker room after a game, and the ref came out in a towel and threatened to kick his butt. Twice in the 80's a coach went after a heckling fan following a game and nearly broke out in a fight.

This stuff has went on since competition started. Is it tolerable, no, but dont act like todays society is any different. The biggest problem is you hear about it more now than then. Today you fart in the wind and its on the internet before the stink goes away! lol

[MightyOaksFan]

I agree fans are out of control for the most part, but I also feel that refs feel like people are there to watch them. Some of them act as if they are part of a Harlem globetrotters show

[M0TIVAT0R]

The fanatic adage: "I can say what ever I want cause I payed the admission to get in..." has never been more prevalent than it is today. Fans, and some coaches, think they should be able to say, or do what ever they want to the officials with no ramifications. Any reaction by the official is deemed to be unprofessional and excessive. The sad fact is, and I have been officiating for years, that this behavior is trickling down to the players more every year.

[clevelandbrowns#1]

Most of us who officiate, are there to manage the game. This means we are there to enforce rules of the game that get broken. We are there to ensure that player advantage and disadvantage are called when one gains an advantage by holding, pushing, slapping, etc... This will result in a foul being called. If we are there to call a foul everytime a rule gets broken we would be there all night!!!! When a player gains an advantage on another while breaking a rule then the official has to penalize that player and team with a foul.

For all of you who attend many games, you will notice that players are bigger, faster, stronger, but that doesn't mean they are bettter basketball players. The game overall in our area has evolved in less skilled players. (I believe!!) Watch how many girls/boys can't handle the basketball with fluency using both hands!!! Where are all the shooters?? When players are getting bigger, faster, stronger but lack the skills of playing the game, the game gets more physical. There are more loose balls, there are more turnovers, there are less points scored (look at the scores of games this year, very low) in these games. Lack of skill leads to uglier basketball and that is what we are observing, both as fans and officials!!!

Most of us are not there to be seen. Actually, I love the games where I show up and call the game and never hear any negative comments. We know when we show up that someone will win and someone will lose. We know that many who are there, will see the game with blinders on according to what school you are there observing and rooting for. Go to a game that you have no allegiance to and observe the fans and watch your own reactions. You don't act like you do at your schools games. You will find yourself not even complaining about the officiating but watching the people around you!!!! Try it one time!!!!

[ManitouDan]

SEOP Hall of Fame worthy post Mr Cleveland Browns---- hats off to ya. You are so 100% correct about the level of play. The basics of the game (dribble both ways with head up , be able to throw a nice bounce bass, pivot without walking, simply being able to run and control a dribble ) are NIL ! that makes for a jump ball ridden, foul prone mess.

[Esully63]

I agree with you ManitouDan, 100%.....but, it is the officials job to manage the game.

Im sorry but I need a little help. I constantly see a drive and layup where the shooter jumps and the defender stays down, the shooter is head and shoulder above the defender, but there is the slightest of contact in the leg area and a blocking foul is called. I dont see the advantage gained! The other side of the coin is pressing. Now pressing is legal but as you stated we may have some less skilled players in our area. What I see is a lot of leaning, reaching, steering and blocking, yet it is seldom called. I clearly see an advantage here. I also see you have used that age old excuse "We would be there all knight..." however consider this...If the officials would make these calls, would the players and coaches not adjust to the calls? Another way to look at it is..if you can get your players to become overly agressive where the officials are willing to let things go...you have gained a coniderable advantage over your opponent.

The ugly games will persist until the officials force the coaches and players to play within the rules and until then those who push past the rules have the advantage and ugly ball continues. As you say you are there to manage the game.

[eagles73Taylor]

^^^^^^^ I dont blame the kids for the lack of skills, I blame the NFHS, the OHSAA and to an extent the officials who enforce the rules. The game in the 50's and 60's were night and day to what it is today because rules now allow for a more aggressive game.

Some examples, years ago to draw a charge you had to be set, no just in a decent position, but set for a second with both feet planted to draw a charge. Nowadays flail your arms and flop and you get the call. What that does is encourage more contact from the defender. When I played, if you didnt get to the spot, you tried to block the shot or weakly contest the layup.

Another is the palming of the ball. Years ago, this was strictly enforced. Now you can literally place your hand under the ball and cross over. I have noticed some officials starting to tighten up on this one. What does this mean, now an offensive player can get a step and plow into the lane creating the above mentioned scenario more often than years past.

Hand checking, years ago you touch a guy you get the whistle. Defenders wouldnt body bump or put their hands on a dribbler as much as to not get a foul. Now, it looks like the line of scrimmage in a football game with the hands out on defense. This leads to more physical play.

The jump stop, dont get me started. When it first came out you had to shoot after you did this move, then they started letting you pass off of it, and now you dont even have to land with both feet at the same time. Is this the kids fault to?

So, are the kids to blame for lack of skills? No, they are putting in hours upon hours of work on a game that has morphed from years ago. They work on skills such as getting to the rim strong. I see some sloppy play from time to time, but I also watch our kids boys and girls working on their game.

Kind of high and mighty of some of you to insinuate that kids nowadays dont work as hard as you guys did long ago. I was there back then, trust me these kids today put in the time. Maybe some of you whistle blowers should protest your rules commitees to get some changes brought back. Kids will adjust to the rules.

[clevelandbrowns#1]

ESully,
When contact is made with an airborne shooter and they go to the ground something HAS to be called!!! This is a serious injury risk to that person airborne!!!! If the defender was there and the offensive player came into him, then a charge shall be called!! If he was not there and moved under then a block shall be called!!! The charge/block call is a very judgemental call. Some will see it as a block, while the others will see it as a charge. If a player gets knocked off line by a defender then yes he/she gained an advantage and should be called a foul!!! Again, those of us who officiate at a higher level understand that concept. Yes, we are there to manage the game, that means you don't want us to call every so called foul. Basketball is a contact sport and it always will be!! Manage the game, it is an art that takes a while to learn!!!!

[M0TIVAT0R]

^^^^^^^ I dont blame the kids for the lack of skills, I blame the NFHS, the OHSAA and to an extent the officials who enforce the rules. The game in the 50's and 60's were night and day to what it is today because rules now allow for a more aggressive game.

Some examples, years ago to draw a charge you had to be set, no just in a decent position, but set for a second with both feet planted to draw a charge. Nowadays flail your arms and flop and you get the call. What that does is encourage more contact from the defender. When I played, if you didnt get to the spot, you tried to block the shot or weakly contest the layup.

Another is the palming of the ball. Years ago, this was strictly enforced. Now you can literally place your hand under the ball and cross over. I have noticed some officials starting to tighten up on this one. What does this mean, now an offensive player can get a step and plow into the lane creating the above mentioned scenario more often than years past.

Hand checking, years ago you touch a guy you get the whistle. Defenders wouldnt body bump or put their hands on a dribbler as much as to not get a foul. Now, it looks like the line of scrimmage in a football game with the hands out on defense. This leads to more physical play.

The jump stop, dont get me started. When it first came out you had to shoot after you did this move, then they started letting you pass off of it, and now you dont even have to land with both feet at the same time. Is this the kids fault to?

So, are the kids to blame for lack of skills? No, they are putting in hours upon hours of work on a game that has morphed from years ago. They work on skills such as getting to the rim strong. I see some sloppy play from time to time, but I also watch our kids boys and girls working on their game.

Kind of high and mighty of some of you to insinuate that kids nowadays dont work as hard as you guys did long ago. I was there back then, trust me these kids today put in the time. Maybe some of you whistle blowers should protest your rules commitees to get some changes brought back. Kids will adjust to the rules.

Your advice is nice, but if officials took it there would be 10x the fans and coaches complaining. Just one scenario for you; a kid dribbles the ball and loses the handle on it because he is out of control, then dives for the ball simultaneously with the defender diving for it. Contact is made between both players, and the ball goes out of bounds. Do you want a double foul here, so that the official manages the game and keeps it from getting physical? Lets say he calls a double foul, and now the defender stops diving for the ball, but the offense doesn't stop, hasn't the offense gained an advantage? Or if the offense stops diving for the ball, hasn't the defense gained an advantage? This scenario comes about all the time. If you do call a double foul, how are the players going to adjust to that so that neither player gains an advantage?

[Charge]

I have noticed players are aloud to double-dribble now also. I guess if you watch an NBA game, you will notice they don't have to dribble if they don't want to. I think they change rules that they don't need to in an attempt to make the game more exciting. I wonder how long before they have a shot clock in high school basketball.

[ManitouDan]

lots to respond to but to Eagles -- IMO kids are not even coming close to the level of time that should/could be put in. This will be a long response but I've got several points to make. First , the practice time with our team may actually be more or about the same as nearly every year. You practice 1.5 -2 hours every day you are not playing. BUT it's the time spent in the 7-8 off months where the difference lies. Males may get out and play a little but females simply NEVER pick up a ball in the off months AND (again IMO) they rarely practice on their own.

and the comment on getting to rim strong ??? We are talking the girls game here right ??? If you can't cross half court there isn't much need to discuss getting to the rim. got to go MD

[treehugger]

As a former coach, I always stated to my teams that it was not a call from an official that won or lost the game for the team I was coaching. I was a part of every win or loss, and every player on the team was a part of every win or loss. You hopefully as a coach and player, play a good enough game against your competition, that those few calls that were missed or made could not determine the outcome of the game. Refs are human also.
However, over the past few years I must say as a by-stander, watching a game I have not seen many referees that do not make themselves a huge part of the game and the outcome of the games themselves. This is not just in Basketball, but football as well noted the play that kept Valley’s football team from the playoffs this season, referees from across the state that have seen the replay concur that the running back crossed the goal line. Recently every basketball game that I have attended the refs have done a poor job of “managing the game” as Cleveland stated. It appears to me that many refs may be in it for the money over making the correct calls. They want to get their check and hit the road as quickly as possible. As I say that, I am sure there are many that do it for the love of the game and to help the young people abide by the rules of the game. One thing is there is no recourse for these officials if you call the OHSAA they say there is nothing they can do. As I conclude, it is my understanding that refs that get voted to continue ref tournament play at the end of the regular season get those votes the same way that we pick our politicians, a popularity vote not form some sort of evaluation that would make them work harder during the regular season to earn the prestige of getting to ref at higher levels.
:122246 By-the-way, it is fun watching when you do not have a dog in the fight, you get to watch the young people play and work hard to achieve, and a sideshow of parents acting like spoiled brats, and coaching their child form the stands instead of letting the coaches do their job.

[ManitouDan]

a comment about girls adjusting to the game. In back to back home games we had the same two ref's in the jv game . Both times the games turned into hockey games. My daughter was beating on people so bad it was near embarrassing . I told her on the way home " you can't do that " ( giving a forearm shiver to the dribbler) and she says " Why , I knew they were not going to call it" .

The game DOES NOT NEED TO BE ANY MORE PHYSICAL !!!! they are killing one another as it is now. I feel sorry for ref's in some games , they call all the fouls neither team would have a roster big enough to finish the game. What I would prefer is for the two officials to tell the team captains. This will not be a hockey game -- When playing D you make contact to gain an advantage IT WILL BE CALLED ! By the 2nd quarter , (and every other quarter that official ever calls for that team) girls will understand the beating and banging will not be tolerated. and IMO you get a cleaner , more well played game. MD

[Grinder]

I think officials are like coaches the good ones are respected and the bad aren't. All though you are always going to have some fans blame the officials no matter what. I played ball several years ago and I know the rules have changed so much since I played. I will hear fans yelling that have no clue what the rule is. I was at a basketball game a while back when the fans wanted an over and back call but it wasn't over and back. Most fans don't know all the different rules and changes. From what I have seen over the years players, coaches and officials all make mistakes during a game. I can't think of very many games over the years where an official has actually cost a team a game. It is a job I wouldn't want because someone is going to be mad at you.

[M0TIVAT0R]

Trust me, officials are being evaluated all over the state. Even Henry Zaborniak Jr has been out observing.

[ManitouDan]

One call in specific I'd like to see called more, The reach in where contact is made attempting to get a jump ball. Rarely is this clean and , again , girls get conditioned to being able to get away it and it leads to more and more contact . the big majority of the time a foul is committed .

[thunderdome]

Complaints about fan behavior, although cathartic, belong in the same category as complaints about the human condition or, for that matter, the weather. Competition incites emotions (anger, joy, relief, etc.) both on the part of players and fans (and officials some times). Some are better equipped to suppress emotions than others. High school officiating, especially for girl's games, is commonly inconsistent if not poor (and I openly admit that I couldn't do any better so please don't send me any applications). Even if the officiating was perfect, you still have those darn human emotions to deal with. Like it or not, fan outbursts are just as much part of the game as a jump shot or a charge. Most officials understand this and manage it appropriately. I suppose we could avoid fan problems by prohibiting them from the games but I don't think that idea will have much traction.

[ManitouDan]

can we all get off our couch's now ? LOL JK Mr Dome