fan behavior???

[Esully63]

ESully,
When contact is made with an airborne shooter and they go to the ground something HAS to be called!!! This is a serious injury risk to that person airborne!!!! If the defender was there and the offensive player came into him, then a charge shall be called!! If he was not there and moved under then a block shall be called!!! The charge/block call is a very judgemental call. Some will see it as a block, while the others will see it as a charge. If a player gets knocked off line by a defender then yes he/she gained an advantage and should be called a foul!!! Again, those of us who officiate at a higher level understand that concept. Yes, we are there to manage the game, that means you don't want us to call every so called foul. Basketball is a contact sport and it always will be!! Manage the game, it is an art that takes a while to learn!!!!

No sense discusing the issue when you are going to the extreme of accusing me of trying to justify taking the legs out from under a shooter. Come on guy .... get real!

[clevelandbrowns#1]

Eagles 73,
I have a question for you??? What was the size of your center 50's-60's, forwards, guards?? Not even close to the size today!!!!
Blame it on NFHS, OHSAA, and officials!!!! Now, that is funny!! It is my fault that a kid can't dribble, shoot, box out, play defense with feet, carry the ball, etc.... How about putting the blame on the parent, coach, and player for not putting in the time on defense, dribbling, passing and shooting. Always someone else!!!!
Are you telling me that years ago players didnt put hands on others?? Come on, how did they play??? Hand checking is when a player puts his/her hands on another and gains an advantage by pushing, steering, etc... If we called a foul everytime a player put heir hand on another, THERE WOULD BE NO PLAYERS LEFT TO COMPLETE THE GAME!!!!
NO, you are not allowed to put your hand under the ball and then dribble over and over and over etc... If that happens with the guys i work with it is called!!!
Players work hard on their game today?? I disagree!!! The majority show up when basketball starts and that is the first day that they did anything towards basketball skills for that upcoming season!! Come on Eagle 73!!!

[Esully63]

Eagles 73,
I have a question for you??? What was the size of your center 50's-60's, forwards, guards?? Not even close to the size today!!!!
Blame it on NFHS, OHSAA, and officials!!!! Now, that is funny!! It is my fault that a kid can't dribble, shoot, box out, play defense with feet, carry the ball, etc.... How about putting the blame on the parent, coach, and player for not putting in the time on defense, dribbling, passing and shooting. Always someone else!!!!
Are you telling me that years ago players didnt put hands on others?? Come on, how did they play??? Hand checking is when a player puts his/her hands on another and gains an advantage by pushing, steering, etc... If we called a foul everytime a player put heir hand on another, THERE WOULD BE NO PLAYERS LEFT TO COMPLETE THE GAME!!!!
NO, you are not allowed to put your hand under the ball and then dribble over and over and over etc... If that happens with the guys i work with it is called!!!
Players work hard on their game today?? I disagree!!! The majority show up when basketball starts and that is the first day that they did anything towards basketball skills for that upcoming season!! Come on Eagle 73!!!

Once again if thier skills are not there you should make the call! Every player and coach that exist should feel insulted to know that the officials feel we are not capable of playing within the rules and therefore need them to not make calls to keep us all from fouling out. Truth of the matter is the skill levels are there but if you are allowed to cut corners, well there is a true advantage.

[haverightsto]

lots to respond to but to Eagles -- IMO kids are not even coming close to the level of time that should/could be put in. This will be a long response but I've got several points to make. First , the practice time with our team may actually be more or about the same as nearly every year. You practice 1.5 -2 hours every day you are not playing. BUT it's the time spent in the 7-8 off months where the difference lies. Males may get out and play a little but females simply NEVER pick up a ball in the off months AND (again IMO) they rarely practice on their own.

and the comment on getting to rim strong ??? We are talking the girls game here right ??? If you can't cross half court there isn't much need to discuss getting to the rim. got to go MD

WOW I cannot even believe that you would make a statement that "females simply NEVER pick up a ball in the off months"! There are so many young ladies out there who play some type of AAU ball nowadays that it is not even funny! My daughter, as well as 4 other members of her high school varsity team alone (and yes no more than two of them play on the SAME team), starts practices the same week her high school season is over and starts playing tournaments as early as the last week in March and is not done until the end of July! She played at least 40 GAMES this summer, let alone practices twice a week EVERY week and open gyms with her high school team at least once a week, as did the other 4 girls on her high school team! In addition to this she also attended 3 different basketball camps over the summer!! While I agree that there are SOME females who NEVER pick up a ball during the off season, PLEASE do not take away from the girls who actually do!!! I have seen ALOT of girls who put in way more time than most of the boys I know!! The game is forever changing and the kids who truly wanna compete DO PUT IN THE TIME!!

[clevelandbrowns#1]

ESully,
You are funny, and I don't think you will ever make an evaluator on talented players or talented officials!!! I feel I do make the calls when their skills are limited. Turnover, turnover, foul, turnover, foul, "let em play", turnover, foul, foul, "let em play", "call a foul", turnover, turnover, "reaching in", "over the back", "let em play".
Blame it on NFHS, OHSAA, officials!!!!!

[Esully63]

lots to respond to but to Eagles -- IMO kids are not even coming close to the level of time that should/could be put in. This will be a long response but I've got several points to make. First , the practice time with our team may actually be more or about the same as nearly every year. You practice 1.5 -2 hours every day you are not playing. BUT it's the time spent in the 7-8 off months where the difference lies. Males may get out and play a little but females simply NEVER pick up a ball in the off months AND (again IMO) they rarely practice on their own.

and the comment on getting to rim strong ??? We are talking the girls game here right ??? If you can't cross half court there isn't much need to discuss getting to the rim. got to go MD

WOW I cannot even believe that you would make a statement that "females simply NEVER pick up a ball in the off months"! There are so many young ladies out there who play some type of AAU ball nowadays that it is not even funny! My daughter, as well as 4 other members of her high school varsity team alone (and yes no more than two of them play on the SAME team), starts practices the same week her high school season is over and starts playing tournaments as early as the last week in March and is not done until the end of July! She played at least 40 GAMES this summer, let alone practices twice a week EVERY week and open gyms with her high school team at least once a week, as did the other 4 girls on her high school team! In addition to this she also attended 3 different basketball camps over the summer!! While I agree that there are SOME females who NEVER pick up a ball during the off season, PLEASE do not take away from the girls who actually do!!! I have seen ALOT of girls who put in way more time than most of the boys I know!! The game is forever changing and the kids who truly wanna compete DO PUT IN THE TIME!!

You tell em' haverightsto. I have two girls and between basketball and volleyball we have 4 or 5 camps, club ball instructional basketball, team camps open gyms and practices 350 days a year. Its not just my girls either, there are thousands of girls accross the state of Ohio that put in time year round. I dont believe we are seeing lack of skill, what we are seeing is play for what the official will allow.

[ManitouDan]

haverightstoo- I should clarify , to those kids who do get out and play in the summer -- A huge "way to go" from ManitouDan. I'm talking what I see in SOC 1 level play. I know (strickly speaking Scioto co players here) that S Curly plays a bunch of AAU ball. Man'OMan does it show ! What a wonderful player for her age.

Could I venture to ask how successful this has made your HS team ? my guess would be very very good. IMO , and I don't have a problem being corrected if necessary, but I don't see that type of committment in many SOC 1 level girls. just don't. My kid doesn't do it due to a rather small committment to fastpitch softball. Lol. MD

[ManitouDan]

to be real clear about committents and dedication to being good at something. I'm all about it. Last year my kid competed against teams from 23 different states and played in Chicago, Indianapolis, Akron, Columbus, and so many other cities and states they just run together. Did'nt want to give the impression I'm setting at home hoping some HS coach teaches my kid to play.

[M0TIVAT0R]

Complaints about fan behavior, although cathartic, belong in the same category as complaints about the human condition or, for that matter, the weather. Competition incites emotions (anger, joy, relief, etc.) both on the part of players and fans (and officials some times). Some are better equipped to suppress emotions than others. High school officiating, especially for girl's games, is commonly inconsistent if not poor (and I openly admit that I couldn't do any better so please don't send me any applications). Even if the officiating was perfect, you still have those darn human emotions to deal with. Like it or not, fan outbursts are just as much part of the game as a jump shot or a charge. Most officials understand this and manage it appropriately. I suppose we could avoid fan problems by prohibiting them from the games but I don't think that idea will have much traction.

Yes, or we could take the advice that has been provided here for officials, and have administrators "manage" the fans. Let them know that if they yell at and criticize the officials they will be removed and not allowed back. Wouldn't that accomplish the same results as what other posters have suggested that officials do with the players? You know, set limitations and require the fans to stay within them. Won't the fans make the necessary adjustments?

[Esully63]

ESully,
You are funny, and I don't think you will ever make an evaluator on talented players or talented officials!!! I feel I do make the calls when their skills are limited. Turnover, turnover, foul, turnover, foul, "let em play", turnover, foul, foul, "let em play", "call a foul", turnover, turnover, "reaching in", "over the back", "let em play".
Blame it on NFHS, OHSAA, officials!!!!!

I dont understand "...evaluator on talented players or talented officials!!!" Once again it is personel... I don't know you... you may be the worlds greatest basketball official. I am not pesonally attacking you. I am giving my personal overall observations of where I see the game today. I know for a fact that the amount of time put into practice for these young adults is incredibly more time than was ever invested when I was that age. They start younger work harder and longer than we ever thought to. If the skills are lacking I feel it is because the skills in question are not deemed needed as they are not called frequently enough to worry about them.

Anyone else want to call me funny or accuse me of justifying upending a shooter, nows your chance. This will be my last post on this site, I thought this was a site for adults to post and discuse thier views. Apperantly there are few here that want to take an open look at others views and evaluate them. Every one wants to take things as personal attacks, and I am not leaving because I feel attacked but because expressing your views to those who are unwilling to listen and evaluate, is a waste of my time.

Just for the record I do believe that Basketball is by FAR the hartdest sport to Officiate, but I would ask you to look hard at where the sport was 30 years ago, where it is today, and where it will be in 30 years from today if we continue to allow it to progress the way it has. All I can envision in thirty years is "Rollerball". Ring any bells.

[eagles73Taylor]

cb#1, doesnt feel good to have someone lay blame on you does it? You say girls dont put in the time, I disagree. Here in Piketon we have probably 15-20 girls grades 7-12 that attend summer work and camps and play as much as they can.

I am sorry they all dont live up to your expectations and that you are dumbing it down for them, but yes officials let kids get too physical.

As for everyone fouling out, wouldnt you think the kids and coaches are smart enough to adjust? I have coached girls bball at several different levels, and every game the kids have to adjust to refs. Its the natural part of playing. Just like first driving, you learn from your mistakes.

My point is and still will be, our governing bodies have allowed the game to become physical.

I watched a good game last night and 3 girls fouled out in a varsity contest. Only 3 losses between both teams, and trust me the skill set was pretty good top to bottom.

[ManitouDan]

lighten up clev-browns didn't personally attack you -- IMO he/she gave a perfect explanation of how a block/charge call is evaluated and called. I hope you stick around and post MD

[ManitouDan]

PS this thread has been the best on the girls forum all winter --thanks to all who have participated. MD

[thunderdome]

can we all get off our couch's now ? LOL JK Mr Dome

MD, your sarcasm is cute. And it's Dr. Dome to you!

[ManitouDan]

lol , I was aiming for pure humor there Doc LOL ! MD

[kahn]

ClevelandBrowns#1 is dead on.

I covered sports in SE Ohio for six years and never once had a dog in the fight. Watching the game when you don't care who wins makes you realize how crazy some fans really are.

There's good natured goofiness that is over the top and fun but some people scream FOUL literally everytime one of their players drives and screams "Get him off of him" EVERYTIME their PG brings the ball up court. It really is amusing to watch.

[favabeans]

My daughter/ex-player thinks every fan should take a rules/coaching class before they are allowed to open their mouth during a game. She gets so tired of hearing people question everything that the coaches/refs do.

It's part of being a spectator to holler at the refs but you need to know when to sit down and shut up. My DD told her father if he was to go over board during one of her games she would have her coach call a timeout and go up in the stands and smack him.

[ManitouDan]

I had a funny thought about comments fans make and other people reaction to them . Last night , as our team was in a offensive pickle (girl double teamed or some other distressful situation) our head coach hollers pretty loud "time out" , 2-3 seconds goes by and he screams "TIME OUT" , Well I guess the ref's were concentrating so hard (cough cough) that our plea was not heard and we turned the ball over.

As the ref went by I hollered at him " Cmon We are screaming for a Time Out ! " and this lady beside me gave me the look like " would you just shut up " . I guess to some people you should never ever say a word Lol . MD

[Nine20four]

All fans want is consistency on both ends of the court, whether they've got a kid in the game or not. If a referee is so thin skinned that he lets a fan, who isn't cursing or swearing, get to him, he shouldn't be an official, especially in basketball where fans are so close to the floor. The good ones don't. There are also officials that are there to show-boat, and purposefully try to make a point by NOT making the right call when they hear stuff from the stands. That borders on cheating. I smell a lot of sour grapes in this thread.

[a_c_m]

All fans want is consistency on both ends of the court, whether they've got a kid in the game or not. If a referee is so thin skinned that he lets a fan, who isn't cursing or swearing, get to him, he shouldn't be an official, especially in basketball where fans are so close to the floor. The good ones don't. There are also officials that are there to show-boat, and purposefully try to make a point by NOT making the right call when they hear stuff from the stands. That borders on cheating. I smell a lot of sour grapes in this thread.

Excellent post! I have tried to stay away from this subject and I believe you have said it best!