Infield fly rule

[Ironman92]

you advance at your own risk......the runners on the base are not out in that scenario.....the batter of course is

The ball wasn't caught so they didn't have to tag up.

[buckeyes41]

I agree, that was a really good game. These two teams always plays hard against each other. I enjoy watching them play. I still have your back that the rule should've been called. good luck to Wayne in their sectional tourny.

[JohnKnight]

The popup was not caught because of wind. There were probably 3-4 balls hit by the team that was in the field in that direction that dropped because of wind over the course of the game. It was blowing hard toward the 1st base line. The ball landed probably 10 feet behind where the 2B was playing on the infield grass. He got back to the ball without much problem, but got twisted by the ball fluttering in the wind and never could get directly under it. Elements do not factor in the application of the infield fly rule, however.

From the FED umpire manual:

(Re: an Infield Fly) Do not call the play too soon; wait until the ball is on its downward arc, especially on windy days, so you can be sure the ordinary effort part of the rule is met.

Pioneer, you might know the rule but you don't know the mechanics of calling it. Windy days can take the IFR off if in the umpire's opinion the play on a pop-up is no longer ordinary.


http://www.umpire.org/modules.php?name= ... nt&sid=168

[sonny]

Nice on getting the way the rule is supposed to be called. I was there and I say it was completely a judgement call. The wind caused a player to struggle with it and it landed in the outfield because the right fielder played it off the ground. The Coach from Wv was completely out of bounds for telling the umpire in front of Ohio kids that he was pathetic and that is why he is over here in Ohio still calling Busch League. Are you kidding me? We beat them twice this year and he says we are Busch league. I know he said it because I was right next to him!!!! The umpire was out of line after game also, keep your mouth shut and go to your car is what he should have done.

[mhs95_06]

So if it is windy and there is a pop-up near 3rd and the 3rd baseman acts as if he is having trouble with it in the air and it falls, he picks it up, steps on 3rd and fires to 2nd for a double play, can the ump, seeing he has been snookered, retroactively call it an infield fly, and send the runners back with just the batter being out?

[mhs95_06]

Does it enter into the umpires judgement on whether or not to call the infield fly, if the DP would be easy, or difficult, say coming down near first and he'd have to throw across the 3rd and then back to 2nd for the DP? Woul;d that make him less likely to call the IFR?

[the hit king]

that's right big john !!!!

[CLane]

The popup was not caught because of wind. There were probably 3-4 balls hit by the team that was in the field in that direction that dropped because of wind over the course of the game. It was blowing hard toward the 1st base line. The ball landed probably 10 feet behind where the 2B was playing on the infield grass. He got back to the ball without much problem, but got twisted by the ball fluttering in the wind and never could get directly under it.

It looks like you rebuked your first statement by yourself. As for the coach getting tossed, it seems fair as well...cleary WV is way more "bush-league" than OH.

Judgement calls for officials/umpires are always a tricky area. In this case, it seems to me that a "no-call" was the right call.

[Pioneer_PA]

Since I'm not getting into the trash-talking portion of this post (note, I said nothing bad about small-school Ohio baseball), I will let you in on some things I have found, some DO NOT EXACTLY REGARD THIS INSTANCE.

First, the Infield Fly Rule CAN be administered RETRO-actively if the umpire simply forgot to call it, as per the National Federation rules. That is a disaster waiting to happen somewhere, sometime.

My honest opinion at the time was that the umpire didn't fully realize the bases were loaded. The team that won had runners at first and third, but the next batter 1-pitch prior the fiasco was intentionally walked. I felt the plate umpire may not have internalized that the bases were in fact loaded...it was the 8th inning of a high-intensity battle in pretty warm weather. IF that were the case, he could have applied the Infield Fly Rule AFTER the play was over. That would have caused a riot, I'm sure.

I apparently was wrong and he did not judge it as an infield fly. If that is the case, while I disagree with his judgment, it was just that...a judgment. Umpires get tough call right all the time, and they miss a few along the way too. However, I'm of the opinion that basically all but 2 or 3 people in the ballpark thought it was an infield fly...including a lot of lifelong baseball people...and if that is the case, it probably should have been.

Again, my biggest problem with the whole matter was the parking lot incident. That umpire, at least before, has worked in WV in the past. He worked in a region that included much better baseball than Wayne or the OVC currently play. The MSAC has 2-3 draft picks per year and 3-4 D-I kids on the I-64 corridor between Huntington and Charleston. There is a Projected pre-10th round draft pick at Nitro this year, for instance.

Wayne is obviously not quite the baseball factory it was 15 years ago (3 draft picks on one team, and ranked No. 23 nationally in 1994), but for the most part they play pretty sound baseball. When they don't play sound, they lose. They're good enough to win quite a few games, but not to overcome their own mistakes. Two nights before they were involved in what was apparently one of the worst umpired games in all of baseball at Spring Valley (a 12-10 win), where umpires supposedly missed darn near every call both directions (a friend of mine from Dublin, OH who went to Bishop Watterson was there and told me that...he has no ties to either team and I wasn't there).

The kid who started on the mound, like Thaxton, is a sophomore. That was his second career varsity start, and he threw 5 strong innings before he started having trouble throwing strikes. The kid that replaced him is probably our #2 or #3 (they're about the same effectiveness-wise), and he pitched well enough to win the game, but a couple of mistakes behind him and one by him cost him.

If Fairland were on this side of the river, they would be a perfect fit in our conference. They wouldn't dominate in anything, but they would compete in everything.

[JohnKnight]

Why didn't you just say, " I was wrong and should not have called the umpire out like that." The coach probably deserved to be tossed and the fans probably got personal. Umpiring is a tough job and more people need to shut up and let them do their job. Most coaches don't know the rules and few fans have any idea, even though they think they do!

[highandtight]

Pioneer, your first post says 95% get it right. Do you think that is enough? If you can't get that call right, get out.

[sonny]

I still cant get over calling the ovc a busch league after getting beat twice by Fairland. Who does he think he is. Wayne's coach argued a good point on the infield fly rule but after saying that about the busch league,he deserved to get tossed. Now, for what happened in the parking lot, the umpire needs to keep his mouth shut and so do the kids and parents. Pioneer- you make strong points about your team but the bottom line is the call didnt make the diffeence in the game. You are right about the game, it was played well. I was standing right there, the wayne coach crossed the line-he started that argument and went way too far with his comments. Remember all that coach did was get his players and parents flared up over the situation. If the Wayne parents knew what he said about the BUSCH LEAGUE, they would raise their eyebrows. I know a few of them and they are not like that. He shouldnt be penalized for arguing the call but he should for his comments about a team that just beat him twice!!!!

[Pioneer_PA]

Why didn't you just say, " I was wrong and should not have called the umpire out like that." The coach probably deserved to be tossed and the fans probably got personal. Umpiring is a tough job and more people need to shut up and let them do their job. Most coaches don't know the rules and few fans have any idea, even though they think they do!

I can assure you the fans did not get personal. Everything I described is exactly what happened. There was nothing more to it, nothing less. At Fairland, the fans sit beyond first base down the rightfield line...I assure you if anyone said anything to the plate ump before he walked through the gate after the game, he didn't hear it. I walked down between the fans and where he came out, with the intention of just being there in case it got heated...I didn't stand right in his way...but up against the fence watching the teams shake hands and hoping nothing stupid was said there. He jumped at the very first words spoken to him..."don't you know what an infield fly is." Those words set him off. As I said before, I was right square in the middle of it...but the only thing I yelled at the umpire was "That's classy, telling a woman to shutup" and then "So now you're threatening a player on the parking lot?" "Challenging" would have been a better word there, but I was surprised he said it and it caught me off guard. After that, I did my best to settle everyone back down. Once he steps off the field, he has zero authority...no more than you or I. If you or I got in a yelling match with someone like that, we would be way out of line too.

And I assure you, I'm a bit more than simply a fan of the game. I'm beyond fandom and into aficionado.

If you ever argue a holding call with a football official, then let it go and walk away and he flags you while you have your back turned talking at your sideline, you remember your exact words here before you go back for more. I sincerely hope that doesn't happen to you...I have family in Waverly (all of them up in years) so I'm a Tiger fan from afar...haha.

And highandtight, I have no problem with 95% of judgment calls being correct. Ball-strike, out-safe, most do a darn good job. This was just a strange situation that truthfully wasn't handled well by ANYONE. Since it is rare for an umpire to get unruly following a game, I focused on that in this particular situation.

sonny, I certainly didn't see a big difference between the caliber of teams. Thing is, we're probably the 4th best team in our league, while Fairland is far and away the best in the OVC. That said, the differential in 1-5 in the Cardinal Conference is not very big. That's why I said I think Fairland would fit right in. They're the same caliber Wayne is, and would probably have a similar record to us (19-11 now).

I think it is time to let this post die, at least from my standpoint. I think we've all kept it pretty civil with one another, and we're to the point of just rehashing. I have nothing new to add to it.

Best of luck to all you guys in the postseason.

[JohnKnight]

I assume you meant threatening an umpire?

You know there are laws about that, right?Some states have special ones!

http://www.naso.org/legislation/page4.htm

My problem with you, is blasting the umpire on a public forum and calling him ignorant when in fact you were the ignorant party in this situation. The umpire knew the rules and how to apply them, no one else did so they took it out on him. He doesn't have to take that.

[sonny]

Pioneer,again you are missing the point. If the Wayne coach wouldnt have crossed the line ON THE FIELD with his comments this wouldnt have happened. The umpire,yes, should have kept his mouth shut but you have yet to talk about what your COACH said about the umpire being an idiot and being stuck in the BUSCH league while he was arguing on the field. It still blows me away how a coach can say that in front of the other team's players and coaches!!! Oh well the score says it all, by the way it was told twice.

[Orange and Brown]

When you hear more than one persons version of what happened things start coming together. There is more to this than just one posters view

[blockcharge]

Fans and or players have no right to say anything to umpires after the game. Two wrongs don't make a right but who fired the first shot. By the way its "BUSH" sorry OCD kicked in. Busch would probably be in an adult softball league

[JohnKnight]

By the way its "BUSH" sorry OCD kicked in. Busch would probably be in an adult softball league
Fans and or players have no right to say anything to umpires after the game. Two wrongs don't make a right but who fired the first shot. By the way its "BUSH" sorry OCD kicked in. Busch would probably be in an adult softball league

It had to be said, blockcharge!

[L.R. Faires]

As soon as the situation arises (the infield fly rule) the plate umpire should recognize the rule is in effect. At this time he should signal the base umpires. During the umpires pre-game they should go over things, like who is going to cover fly balls on certain situations, who has the tag ups, how to handle appeals for balls and strikes, etc. This is also where the crew determines the signal for the infield fly. I always stepped in front of, or beside the plate, made sure I had the field umpires attention, and touched the bill of my cap with my forfinger pointing upward. In our conference before the game I would ask the guys to either do the same or akn owledge me somehow and if they didn't, I would call time, to make sure they knew. If you watch a major league game and the rule is in play, they signal in many different ways, most will just hold out their right thumb and pinky to thier side and twist the wrist. It is a judgment call, but most good umps should be able to handle this with realitive ease. A lot of good officiating takes place in pre-game and prevents hassles during the contest.

[pirates09]

I wasn't going to post until this forum got way out of hand...I know for a fact that the baseball landed in the outfield, why i know this for as fact is because i was the base umpire for this ballgame and Pioneer PA i remember you from the game...Infield Fly is a 100% Judgment call and if its not called then its not in effect. I take full offense to you saying that is was the umpires fault, the call is judgment and neither of us felt it was and infield fly. One your coach was way out of line and deserved to be tossed. He disrespected himself, his team, his community and most of all the other team. You DO NOT say anything like that in front of the other team.

Now for the 2 obstruction calls that I must of missed...you will not find a single umpire that will punish a defensive player or a runner for a effort that causes contact. The runner was trying to get to the base and the defensive player was trying to make a play on the ball. So until you get your license for the sport don't tell umpires what they do wrong.

I do agree that the plate umpire should of done exactly what i did, walk directly to your car and leave. Don't say a word to anyone and if the opportunity comes up just turn away and continue to your car. I'm sorry the outcome didn't turn out the way you wanted it to but that happens. There is always a winner and a loser. Now if you really want to push this issue, umpires have paid lawyers through the state association to take care of people like you so let the subject rest.